Ram's head khanjar for comment

[estcrh]

Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????

Curved Dagger (Khanjar) with Ram-Head Pommel, Mughal period, 17th/18th century

Watered steel inlaid with gold and silver in the kuftgari technique
28.6 x 5.7 x 2.9 cm (11 1/4 x 2 1/4 x 1 1/8 in.)

[estcrh]

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

17th Century

India

Wootz Steel.

Lenght: 34.9 cm.

North Indian Khanjar dagger. The hilt is of chiseled steel, with fully-modeled ram’s head pommel. The knucklebow issues from a makara’s mouth and terminates in a horse’s head, while the guard is chiseled with elephant’s heads in relief.

The broad, curved double-edged blade forged of fine silver wootz damascus steel, bears two deep fullers and a pronounced median ridge, developing into a thick armor-piercing tip.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Not wanting to get into a ravel over age on examples of rams heads I have posted I simply loaded on some Rams Heads...Clearly these Hilts have entered the traditions ...and should be viewed as such. The project dagger with probable replacement blade is typical of Indian style.. and is a good example.

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by David

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

David, I know which one you are referring to, and it has signs of use as you can see, but were are the other examples if a carved iron rams heads was a "common" hilt type?

I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with.

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

David, I know which one you are referring to, and it has signs of use as you can see, but were are the other examples if a carved iron rams heads was a "common" hilt type?

I am asking if anyone has any other examples to compare with.

Well, you also posted the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which while perhaps not as old as they claim does seem to be at least antique. Were these "common"? I'm not really sure since this is well outside my collecting interests. But certainly there is a precedent for the form. I don't feel qualified to comment on the age of the original example posted here.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by David

Well, you also posted the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which while perhaps not as old as they claim does seem to be at least antique. Were these "common"? I'm not really sure since this is well outside my collecting interests. But certainly there is a precedent for the form. I don't feel qualified to comment on the age of the original example posted here.

David, the one from the Chicago Art Institute, which would be considered as a zirah bouk, a rather rare form, is very suspect, first it has only been in their collection from 2014 (Gift of Marilynn B. Alsdorf, 2014), second it is described as having a watered steel blade when it is clearly pattern welded. The whole dagger shows no wear / age and the pattern welding while faintly showing in the image provided looks suspiciously like modern Indian pattern welded dagger blades. Since they got the age wrong (17th/18th century) as well I have no confidence in their authentication methods.

I hesitate to use it as an authentic example but I have enlarged the available image a bit, there may be some other opinions.

[ariel]

Based on the screen shot, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole :-)))

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????

You have doubts and rightfully so. This one is 19th century at best, but then again, I suspect new Koftgari. So if the Art Institute if Chicago can be so obviously wrong, then...

Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new.

As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well.

I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new.

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

So what do we have here?!
Two almost identical new pattern welded blades.
Two almost identical new scabbards.
Two almost identical new koftgari works.
Two almost identical ram hilts... that are almost certainly new. So, in this case I believe there is very little doubt.

Excellent point!

Yet, this doesn't impair my initial oppinion that the dagger of the original posting is a 19th century piece, both hilt and blade.

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

Is not the dagger that you have accepted as old in your post #21 a "carved iron hilt"? Does the existence of this dagger therefore not make a case that such hilts existed in antiquity?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by David

Is not the dagger that you have accepted as old in your post #21 a "carved iron hilt"? Does the existence of this dagger therefore not make a case that such hilts existed in antiquity?

David, while we have evidence of rams head hilts, there are not many known examples of carved iron rams head hilts. If they were actually popular ("As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century") were are they?

The one in question seems to have no wear to the edges and in fact has red rust which is sometimes a sign if a newly made iron item. As for the pitting, this can be made through various methods but how do you explain the lack of wear as seen in the hilt of #21?

It may be old and then again it may be new, you have to be a bit skeptical in cases like this.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well.

I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones.

Same experience!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I refer readers to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=7058 and at the forth post down the list...Jim McDougall outlines an interesting set of notes.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an example of how the Rams head transitioned or was copied as a sword hilt..

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Here is an example of how the Rams head transitioned or was copied as a sword hilt..

From the collection of Arms and Armour in the Prince of Wales Museum, now known as Chattrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sanghrahalaya, Mumbai India.