Wootz Katar

Jim McDougall · 16th August 2016, 07:37 PM

Thank you Eric, as always you are phenomenal at locating these most pertinent references!!!
So it would seem that the figure laden blades were certainly less than rare, in fact being noted as 'common' , thus not unlikely to be used in the field rather than simply in celebratory events
That answers my question perfectly.

Mercenary, do we actually KNOW how old the katar is? It seems we have a good idea as far as established iconographically, but much of the research into much older periods remains dauntingly speculative. I think Jens has accomplished some of the most compelling data in the many years he has studied the katar, but he as always maintains his most responsible reservations in asserting such dates until more definitive data can corroborate.

It would seem that use and wear of these weapons might comprise different circumstances much as I asked as far as whether shikargah blades were actually used in the field, or simply as prestigious accoutrements. It would seem that they may well have been both.

While tulwars and shamshirs may well have been used in hunting game such as deer and other, I personally am somewhat in doubt of the use of the katar regularly in hunting tigers or big cats. While there were probably situational circumstances where a katar was used to dispatch a tiger, I am wondering whether that was with an already wounded or spent animal might have been the case, and suitably embellished over time.

Again, we are getting off the main course though

kronckew · 16th August 2016, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
I personally am somewhat in doubt of the use of the katar regularly in hunting tigers or big cats. While there were probably situational circumstances where a katar was used to dispatch a tiger, I am wondering whether that was with an already wounded or spent animal might have been the case, and suitably embellished over time.
...

modern wild boar hunters in the USA frequently use katar length knives to dispatch their quarry, with a thrust thru the heart, usually with an armoured dog holding either end of the piggy. (the smarter ones use a spear, the really smart ones buy their bacon in the supermarket, (piggly wiggly is a personal favouite)). the american term for a knife, 'pig-sticker', derives from this. tigers and bears were dispatched in nepal with khukuri by villagers, tho usually at a cost to their physical integrity. i seeem to recall one of those indian paintings with a tiger being accosted with a katar wielding mughal (found one, see below).

two paintings, tiger hunters with shamshir/talwars, and a found one of a guy carrying a katar while sensibly shooting the tiger with a bow. i also noted in a number of photos, horsemen with distinctly katar-like points on their tiger hunting lances. then i stumbled on the last photo of a katar cum spear socket.

Jim McDougall · 16th August 2016, 08:49 PM

Wayne,
Thanks very much for that interesting art work! As always, we try to imagine just how much license went into these paintings, but they seem portrayed pretty fairly.
Well understood about wild boar hunting, but I will say that out here in Sonora desert regions in Arizona, the javelina (peccari) are some of the most fearsome, unpredictable wild animals. Being anywhere one of them with anything as close quarters as a knife sounds pretty insane.

The idea of mounting a knife or katar (as discussed) on a shaft makes sense, and lances using metal blades often from cut down swords or knife blades often the weapon of choice out here in the Southwest.

ariel · 17th August 2016, 01:22 AM

Those are not katar-tipped lances.
Hunting spears had a crossguard close to the tip to prevent the animal from sliding along the shaft toward the hunter.

Remember King Arthur spearing Mordred without that precaution? Didn't end well:-)

estcrh · 17th August 2016, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Those are not katar-tipped lances.
Hunting spears had a crossguard close to the tip to prevent the animal from sliding along the shaft toward the hunter.

Remember King Arthur spearing Mordred without that precaution? Didn't end well:-)

These spears may be an example.

ariel · 17th August 2016, 02:08 AM

Or these.
And, BTW, the "katar-spear" in Kronckew's post looks like a very recent Indian fantasy:-)

ariel · 17th August 2016, 02:26 AM

Those of us who have cats know full well that just playing with them entails a huge risk of bites and scratches.

Being close enough to an enraged tiger to stab it with a katar guarantees either disembowelment or just decapitation.

The whole idea is to keep a distance much longer than its paws. Spear is good, gun is better. Knife or katar.... forget it!:-)))

Let's take a short break and enjoy the classic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLdk2C25Z14

17th August 2016, 01:22 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Those are not katar-tipped lances. Hunting spears had a crossguard close to the tip to prevent the animal from sliding along the shaft toward the hunter. Remember King Arthur spearing Mordred without that precaution? Didn't end well:-) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 17th August 2016 at 01:54 AM.

17th August 2016, 02:08 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Or these. And, BTW, the "katar-spear" in Kronckew's post looks like a very recent Indian fantasy:-) Attached Images

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16th August 2016, 07:37 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thank you Eric, as always you are phenomenal at locating these most pertinent references!!! So it would seem that the figure laden blades were certainly less than rare, in fact being noted as 'common' , thus not unlikely to be used in the field rather than simply in celebratory events That answers my question perfectly. Mercenary, do we actually KNOW how old the katar is? It seems we have a good idea as far as established iconographically, but much of the research into much older periods remains dauntingly speculative. I think Jens has accomplished some of the most compelling data in the many years he has studied the katar, but he as always maintains his most responsible reservations in asserting such dates until more definitive data can corroborate. It would seem that use and wear of these weapons might comprise different circumstances much as I asked as far as whether shikargah blades were actually used in the field, or simply as prestigious accoutrements. It would seem that they may well have been both. While tulwars and shamshirs may well have been used in hunting game such as deer and other, I personally am somewhat in doubt of the use of the katar regularly in hunting tigers or big cats. While there were probably situational circumstances where a katar was used to dispatch a tiger, I am wondering whether that was with an already wounded or spent animal might have been the case, and suitably embellished over time. Again, we are getting off the main course though

16th August 2016, 08:49 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Wayne, Thanks very much for that interesting art work! As always, we try to imagine just how much license went into these paintings, but they seem portrayed pretty fairly. Well understood about wild boar hunting, but I will say that out here in Sonora desert regions in Arizona, the javelina (peccari) are some of the most fearsome, unpredictable wild animals. Being anywhere one of them with anything as close quarters as a knife sounds pretty insane. The idea of mounting a knife or katar (as discussed) on a shaft makes sense, and lances using metal blades often from cut down swords or knife blades often the weapon of choice out here in the Southwest.

17th August 2016, 02:26 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Those of us who have cats know full well that just playing with them entails a huge risk of bites and scratches. Being close enough to an enraged tiger to stab it with a katar guarantees either disembowelment or just decapitation. The whole idea is to keep a distance much longer than its paws. Spear is good, gun is better. Knife or katar.... forget it!:-))) Let's take a short break and enjoy the classic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLdk2C25Z14