Indian pseudoshashka

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th August 2016, 01:59 AM

I stumbled upon this at http://www.aljantiques.com/a-bronze-...h-century.html Just the hilt... Amazing!!

ariel · 16th August 2016, 02:30 AM

Indeed.

Looks very South Indian to me.
Perhaps I might have been wrong insisting on Nortwest Frontier? :-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th August 2016, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Indeed.

Looks very South Indian to me.
Perhaps I might have been wrong insisting on Nortwest Frontier? :-)

On a specific area I wouldn't like to say...It does seem to lend itself to the Shashka blade... however, it seems to me that any number of sword making schools could present a similar hilt... I think that is what makes Indian sword style so difficult to crack... and we have to date only a handful of examples... but the Tunkou and knuckle guard are a fascinating combination.

Jim McDougall · 16th August 2016, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Indeed.

Looks very South Indian to me.
Perhaps I might have been wrong insisting on Nortwest Frontier? :-)

Not too sure Ariel....it seems there have long been somewhat unclear and indeterminate in many cases ties between the Northwest and the Deccan.
It does not seem hard to imagine cross diffusion , making as Ibrahiim notes, pretty tough classification challenges.

ariel · 14th October 2016, 06:48 PM

When it rains, it pours...

Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th October 2016, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

When it rains, it pours...

Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern

I only see one weapon as the other is at #1 ...

ariel · 15th October 2016, 01:32 PM

Black handle, white handle... :-)

Jim McDougall · 15th October 2016, 05:02 PM

This is an intriguing scenario, these compellingly similar sabres sans guard and with the 'swans neck' type knuckleguard, along with vestigial tunkou.
However it begs the question, are these effectively a 'form' or simply a number of cross influenced variant examples.

The cases of swords which are seemingly a particular form except certain components are missing, may be intended as such, or possibly examples with have lost these components.

We have seen shamshirs and various 'Ottoman bulbous hilt' sabres which have no crossguard and have asked, were there occasions where individuals preferred a sword without a crossguard? As clearly many Central Asian sabres such as shashka have been in notable favor and use without guard, would that character be chosen in altering other sword forms? Why?

We have seen the cases of tulwars with the characteristic disc pommel missing, and asked, was it deliberately removed, or simply broken or lost?
It has seemed there have been numbers of such tulwars in Afghan regions and suggestions that these discs impaired the swordsmans hand in its use.

These sabres add another page to these curious anomalies, but in their case they are clearly made in their form deliberately. The vestigial tunkou seems to me a clear nod toward Ottoman influences; the swans neck guard reflects northern India tulwars of Rajasthan and of course Afghan paluoars; and the hilts themselves the shashka and like Central Asian types.

Rather than a distinct form of sword type, this seems more a case of variant which has occurred in some number and reflecting compiled influences. It will require more instances of examples with regional provenance to establish enough consistency to declare a unique category .

Obviously, an intriguing conundrum and interesting type worthy of continued research.

14th October 2016, 06:48 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	When it rains, it pours... Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern Attached Images

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16th August 2016, 01:59 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I stumbled upon this at http://www.aljantiques.com/a-bronze-...h-century.html Just the hilt... Amazing!! Attached Images

16th August 2016, 02:30 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indeed. Looks very South Indian to me. Perhaps I might have been wrong insisting on Nortwest Frontier? :-)

15th October 2016, 01:32 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Black handle, white handle... :-)

15th October 2016, 05:02 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	This is an intriguing scenario, these compellingly similar sabres sans guard and with the 'swans neck' type knuckleguard, along with vestigial tunkou. However it begs the question, are these effectively a 'form' or simply a number of cross influenced variant examples. The cases of swords which are seemingly a particular form except certain components are missing, may be intended as such, or possibly examples with have lost these components. We have seen shamshirs and various 'Ottoman bulbous hilt' sabres which have no crossguard and have asked, were there occasions where individuals preferred a sword without a crossguard? As clearly many Central Asian sabres such as shashka have been in notable favor and use without guard, would that character be chosen in altering other sword forms? Why? We have seen the cases of tulwars with the characteristic disc pommel missing, and asked, was it deliberately removed, or simply broken or lost? It has seemed there have been numbers of such tulwars in Afghan regions and suggestions that these discs impaired the swordsmans hand in its use. These sabres add another page to these curious anomalies, but in their case they are clearly made in their form deliberately. The vestigial tunkou seems to me a clear nod toward Ottoman influences; the swans neck guard reflects northern India tulwars of Rajasthan and of course Afghan paluoars; and the hilts themselves the shashka and like Central Asian types. Rather than a distinct form of sword type, this seems more a case of variant which has occurred in some number and reflecting compiled influences. It will require more instances of examples with regional provenance to establish enough consistency to declare a unique category . Obviously, an intriguing conundrum and interesting type worthy of continued research.