Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

cornelistromp · 1st August 2016, 03:24 PM

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

ulfberth · 1st August 2016, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

Thanks Jasper !
And yes that is correct, Diefstetter is known to have the crossed flails as a blade mark.
The crescent moon referring as a mark of Diefstetter is how the sword ( post 35 ) was described by Hermann Historica.
I was as surprised as you are, perhaps another later member of the family ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

cornelistromp · 1st August 2016, 06:39 PM

there is also a later member and swordmaker of the diefstetter family from Munich known;

Ulrich Diefstetter 1536-1589, who had a checkered shield and a jester head as a mark but no crescent moon.

best,
Jasper

ulfberth · 1st August 2016, 07:44 PM

I don't know were Hermann Historica got the information about crescent moons used as a mark by Ulrich Diefstetter,
perhaps they had a reference we don't know about yet.
I thought both swords were nice examples that fit in this post "Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades "
It would be interesting to find out if the crescent moons were used by this family of sword makers or not.
We do know that they were used by various makers, the earliest I found so far are these two similar hand and a half swords.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2016, 02:57 AM

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

blue lander · 2nd August 2016, 03:44 AM

I'd like to throw this odd tulwar into the mix:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Dukari

And this schiavona:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=68

...purely to confuse the topic

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2016, 04:06 AM

Actually no confusion at all!
These are interesting examples of the spurious use of these kinds of markings on various blades, the one a 'souvenier' item from India. The other with schiavona hilt is of triple fuller sabre form usually it seems from Solingen well into and through 19th century. The quad groupings of crosses and usually another device (comet and stars, or in this case moon) are often seen on Algerian 'nimcha' blades (see Briggs, 1965).

ulfberth · 2nd August 2016, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

Hi Jim,

This is also what I think and indeed the most probable cause if I may use this term, as Jasper has also referred to this Spanish/German origins in post #26.
It seems the crescent moon became more of a quality mark as a personal maker signature.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th August 2016, 11:32 AM

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

1st August 2016, 07:44 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 426	I don't know were Hermann Historica got the information about crescent moons used as a mark by Ulrich Diefstetter, perhaps they had a reference we don't know about yet. I thought both swords were nice examples that fit in this post "Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades " It would be interesting to find out if the crescent moons were used by this family of sword makers or not. We do know that they were used by various makers, the earliest I found so far are these two similar hand and a half swords. Kind regards Ulfberth Last edited by ulfberth; 1st August 2016 at 08:26 PM.

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1st August 2016, 03:24 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 ) what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon? Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield). fe post#5 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=diefstetter Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

1st August 2016, 06:39 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	there is also a later member and swordmaker of the diefstetter family from Munich known; Ulrich Diefstetter 1536-1589, who had a checkered shield and a jester head as a mark but no crescent moon. best, Jasper

2nd August 2016, 02:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty! As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich. It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations. The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities. It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

2nd August 2016, 03:44 AM	#6
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I'd like to throw this odd tulwar into the mix: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Dukari And this schiavona: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=68 ...purely to confuse the topic

2nd August 2016, 04:06 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Actually no confusion at all! These are interesting examples of the spurious use of these kinds of markings on various blades, the one a 'souvenier' item from India. The other with schiavona hilt is of triple fuller sabre form usually it seems from Solingen well into and through 19th century. The quad groupings of crosses and usually another device (comet and stars, or in this case moon) are often seen on Algerian 'nimcha' blades (see Briggs, 1965).

4th August 2016, 11:32 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...swords&f=false I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..