Afghan Pulowar blade type?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This type of blade is quite unusual as the slots in the blade can carry pearls...which slide up and down... I think it is called the blade/tears of the afflicted or something like that. The Chinese incorporated this design but it is often also seen in Afghan/Persian/ Indian blades. See http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html for the Chinese link ....and as good as it gets this is discussed with excellent detail at Forum Library http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ears+afflicted
Some observe the decorative nature and I agree with that..as well as the technology in engineering such a blade. The blade also seen in the second picture looks classy and since it has both a great cartouche and magic squares as well as having the appearance of wootz;...a nice weapon..

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the explanations but I don't see any slots with the "tears of the wounded," only fullers.


I also think the appearance of wootz is given by very fine pattern welding since the streaks of patternig are much too long and run more or less paralel to eachother.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the explanations but I don't see any slots with the "tears of the wounded," only fullers.


I also think the appearance of wootz is given by very fine pattern welding since the streaks of patternig are much too long and run more or less paralel to eachother.

This is a confusing blade, it has a radical curve, the fullers look crudely done like they were gouged out, yet there are gold / brass inserts all along the back edge, fold lines run through it from one end to the other. I have been looking but have not seen another one quite like it, I was thinking Persian but that is just a guess.

By the way, yours is a very nice example, you are on a winning streak lately.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This is a confusing blade, it has a radical curve, the fullers look crudely done like they were gouged out, yet there are gold / brass inserts all along the back edge, fold lines run through it from one end to the other. I have been looking but have not seen another one quite like it, I was thinking Persian but that is just a guess.

By the way, yours is a very nice example, you are on a winning streak lately.

Eric, I would say this is a rather rough approximation of a Persian trade blade, the dots at the beginning of the grooves are seen on a number of Persian influenced blades in this manner. The cartouche and the talismanic bedough square also intended to recall such blades. As this is on an Afghan paluoar it is not surprising as frontier artisans in these regions were most creative.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Eric, I would say this is a rather rough approximation of a Persian trade blade, the dots at the beginning of the grooves are seen on a number of Persian influenced blades in this manner. The cartouche and the talismanic bedough square also intended to recall such blades. As this is on an Afghan paluoar it is not surprising as frontier artisans in these regions were most creative.

Jim, thanks for your insight!!!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This is a confusing blade, it has a radical curve, the fullers look crudely done like they were gouged out, yet there are gold / brass inserts all along the back edge, fold lines run through it from one end to the other. I have been looking but have not seen another one quite like it, I was thinking Persian but that is just a guess.

By the way, yours is a very nice example, you are on a winning streak lately.

Winning streak... maybe, but definitely not for my bank account... ;-) And also recently got some duds... but I think that's part of the trade.

I'm very much impressed by the "confusing" blade as it is an exceptional example of genuine Afghan (I assume) craftmanship. Of course it isn't displaying the skill one can see in the Persian or Indian blades, but it definitely is the work of a quite skilled local swordsmith. Making such a pattern welded blade is no small acomplishment!

Regards,

Marius

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the explanations but I don't see any slots with the "tears of the wounded," only fullers.


I also think the appearance of wootz is given by very fine pattern welding since the streaks of patternig are much too long and run more or less paralel to eachother.

I confess to not knowing what style of wootz is the blade...maybe as you point out.

The pearl slots are empty...but the access holes into which the pearls are placed are visible... I assume the pearls fell out of this one...

[Jens Nordlunde]

I cant see where the steel bearings/perls/rubies should be added, and there they should have rolled.
If they had been there, it would have been very clear to see where the bearings once had rolled.
Mostly the bearings were added from the top of the blade, and the holes sealed, before the hilt was mounted. The bearings could also be added from the back of the blade, near the hilt. A small hole was drilled, the bearings added, and the hole closed with a screw or sealed.

[estcrh]

Tears of the wounded.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I confess to not knowing what style of wootz is the blade...maybe as you point out.

The pearl slots are empty...but the access holes into which the pearls are placed are visible... I assume the pearls fell out of this one...

Hello Ibrahiim,

I think you are taking the round technological holes at the endings of the fullers as access holes. If you examine the photos more carefully, you may notice there is absolutely no space in the fullers to hold anything, and the round holes at the end of the fullers where made there simply to facilitate the chiseling of the fullers and give them a round, well defined and precise ending. When chiselling the fullers, it is very easy to precisely control the starting point as it is the point where you place the chisel and start applying the force. However, it is rather difficult to control the ending point since the application of force on the chisel cannot be stopped with sufficient precision. Therefore, the necessity to have some holes drilled where the fullers should end, in order to use them as "chisel stoppers." That's why the fullers have those holes at only one end. Of course the problem of giving the fuller a precise stop can also be handled by starting the chiselling from both ends.

Another explanation may be that the fullers were not chiseled at all but they were milled along the blade with a rotating power tool. In that case, the holes would mark the entry point of the milling cutter. If this is the case, then the whole blade is nothing but a modern reproduction...

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

Besides, the grooves for the "tears of the wounded" were normally chisseld through the whole thickness of the blade, so they were piercing the blade from side to side.

Regards,

Marius

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Ibrahiim,

I think you are taking the round technological holes at the endings of the fullers as access holes. If you examine the photos more carefully, you may notice there is absolutely no space in the fullers to hold anything, and the round holes at the end of the fullers where made there simply to facilitate the chiseling of the fullers and give them a round, well defined and precise ending. When chiselling the fullers, it is very easy to precisely control the starting point as it is the point where you place the chisel and start applying the force. However, it is rather difficult to control the ending point since the application of force on the chisel cannot be stopped with sufficient precision. Therefore, the necessity to have some holes drilled where the fullers should end, in order to use them as "chisel stoppers." That's why the fullers have those holes at only one end. Of course the problem of giving the fuller a precise stop can also be handled by starting the chiselling from both ends.

Another explanation may be that the fullers were not chiseled at all but they were milled along the blade with a rotating power tool. In that case, the holes would mark the entry point of the milling cutter. If this is the case, then the whole blade is nothing but a modern reproduction...

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

Besides, the grooves for the "tears of the wounded" were normally chisseld through the whole thickness of the blade, so they were piercing the blade from side to side.

Regards,

Marius

I don't quite follow your theory on the fake nature of the blade...The slots are hand grouted thus not 100% aligned. I will place tears of the wounded ...blades ...below ... Thank you for the post...very interesting. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6912

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

[mariusgmioc]

I believe that the grooves were milled with a rotating mill mounted in a hand held power tool or the rotating mill was mounted in a fixed drilling/milling machine, and the blade was moved along the machine table.

That's why the inconsistecy in the depth of the grooves and that's why they are not straight. Last, not least, that's why you have the round entry points of the milling tool at the beginning of the grooves.

It is very easy to chisel straight grooves, and it is very easy to control their depth if you chisel them by hand. The natural movement of the chisel is in straight lines, and you can repeat the chiselling operation until you reach the desired depth.

Try doing the same with a small ball-point end-mill mounted in a hand held power tool and you will know what I mean!

I may not know much about antique weapons but I certainly know something about mechanical machining.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

See anything that looks remotely new here?

[ariel]

It IS old :-)))))))

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

See anything that looks remotely new here?

I guess you are right. The scabbard looks old, but I assume leather can be easily aged. Just bake it a little.

The steel of the hilt also appears to be artificially aged with spots of very recent and active red rust.

I also stand by my conclusion that the blade is a dud. And I explained why.

Try chiseling a straight groove and a curved one and will see what I mean. You basically have to struggle a lot with the chisel if you purportedly want curved grooves like those on the blade. Straight grooves come out naturally.

Moreover, in order to mill the grooves the way they are, the steel of the blade has to be very soft to the point of being iron and that's why I think this blade couldn't stand a single blow without bending.

I would like to hear the opinion of a skilled bladesmith in this matter.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sometimes the slots were in the hilt...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Sometimes the slots were in the hilt...

Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!



Do you have a photo of the whole thing?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!



Do you have a photo of the whole thing?

YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/india...ls-in-the-hilt