Indian pseudoshashka

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

For those who assumed that this bizarre hodge-podge of different styles was a unique example, here is another one, just ended on Dan Morphy's auction.

We seem to be talking about a rare pattern.

Keep it coming Ariel ... This is an amazing thread.

[ariel]

How funny: the same pattern is discussed here


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006


Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

How funny: the same pattern is discussed here


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006


Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

I agree Ariel... These are surely the same form....or am I losing the plot??

[kai]

Hello Ariel,

Thanks for bringing these up! Did you won the first example?

I agree that the hilt of both sabres seem to be of the same type and possibly related to the hilt type in the other thread. A probable third example got posted there and I'm attaching it below for reference (with the brass fittings and apparently different workmanship it may be more recent).

Do the blades and the single scabbard allow any attribution? Any feature that doesn't fit with a Deccani origin?

All hilts are fastened with 3 rivets and seem to be of full tang construction. It is interesting that the first example seems to represent a bird's head while the third is much more abstract and the second one seems to approach the more bulbous pommel style. The langet-like feature seems to be separate from the bolster+guard in the first example.

I'm not sure that merging both threads is going to help our ongoing discussion; especially, since we haven't yet established that these really share the same origin. The cross-referencing should do for directing attention to the possibly related threads, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Ariel,

The inversed-tunkou(-like) feature of yataghans as well as the tunkou of East Asian blades will both originate from the langet-like construction utilised to secure South Indian blades. In the swords discussed here and in the companion thread, this feature is very similar to yataghan, indeed. If this isn't a surviving older Indian or central Asian element and really a Turk influence, would the time line make an Ottoman-Deccani or a Turk-"Afghan" cultural transfer more likely?

Regards,
Kai

[ariel]

I have already expressed my opinion on that on the "other" thread.
Again, IMHO, the "tunkou" has nothing to do with the S.Indian technique of attaching the blade to the handle.
Was the "tunkou" brought by the ancient nomads through their successors ( Babur in India, for example, Seljuks in Iran and Turkey) or later on by the Ottoman influences, I do not know for now, and this is an immensely important question.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have already expressed my opinion on that on the "other" thread.
Again, IMHO, the "tunkou" has nothing to do with the S.Indian technique of attaching the blade to the handle.
Was the "tunkou" brought by the ancient nomads through their successors ( Babur in India, for example, Seljuks in Iran and Turkey) or later on by the Ottoman influences, I do not know for now, and this is an immensely important question.

Salaams Ariel, I continue to suggest that the two threads be amalgamated...My questions are; from where does this blade style including the decoration at the throat originate and in fact what is the name of this weapon and where is it from? The use of the term Tunkou is as you say not Indian however, we may not need to get hung up on that as it is only a term which I have used rather cross pollinated from another countries form...I think we just mean the design at the throat ...but one never can tell!

In the case of this sword which I think could be a hybrid or even formed of different regional weapons and possibly a European blade we know very little of its origins but influence seems to be broad based including Pesh Kabz, Kard, Patta, and several others regarding throat decoration and from a lot of weapons with the peculiar hand guard including even Sri Lankan Kastane.... It may be nothing to do with the Yatagan or Shashka. It is for this reason...in wanting to focus on its origin that I have asked for a joining of the threads...so that the full weight of Forum can be brought to bare on this problem.