Waved blades debate - combat value

[not2sharp]

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ?

The answer to that one is yes. It is hard for us to appreciate the difference because we have not tried to use one of these blades in combat. Cutting flesh is not like choping through some vine. For one thing, living flesh is very elastic; a wound canal will constantly act to close. So if you thrust with a straight edge, the wound would exert pressure along the entire circumfrence of the blade. However when you turn it into a curvy blade, then the wound can only exert pressure against the outside edge. For this reason, I suspect that a curvy edge weapon would require far less force to drive into a victim.

n2s

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by not2sharp

The answer to that one is yes. It is hard for us to appreciate the difference because we have not tried to use one of these blades in combat. Cutting flesh is not like choping through some vine. For one thing, living flesh is very elastic; a wound canal will constantly act to close. So if you thrust with a straight edge, the wound would exert pressure along the entire circumfrence of the blade. However when you turn it into a curvy blade, then the wound can only exert pressure against the outside edge. For this reason, I suspect that a curvy edge weapon would require far less force to drive into a victim.

n2s

I won't argue with your theory here n2s, which may well hold true, but i will point out that the Moro kris is not really a thrusting weapon. Most of it's effective wounds would be dealt with a slash with the edge, not with the point. In fact i have incountered many Moro kris with dull, even rounded tips. My question would be whether the wavy longer edge would be more effective in a slash and draw blow than the straigt blade. It seems like it might.

[Battara]

I'm inclined to agree with Mabagani. Against flesh a glancing blow with a kris could seem like large saw teeth, but the problem is the bouncing affect, especially against any armour (which only datus could afford). But against multiple opponents one would not want to spend too much time making too deep of cuts on any one person but hit as many as possible multiple times. Depends on the style and the skills of the warrior in question.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems pertinant to note in this case that there are distinct differences in wavy or undulating blades and those which are serrated. While the wavy form in blades appear to be for effect, it is known that close serration on cutting knives is considered effective.
In most cases it is presumed that 'wavy' blades are mostly associated with ceremonial purpose, however Burton (p.137) suggests in discussing the wavy blade that, "...the object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface".
The term 'flamberge' in the 8th c. was applied in France to nickname the sword of the knight Renaud de Montauban, meaning flamboyant. The term flammard by 13th c. had become used to describe knightly swords, and alluded to the flaming sword described in Biblical literature. It would seem that that symbolism was applied literally in the wavy blades seen on the huge landsknecht swords, without actual practical value being considered.
Swords with serpentine or undulating blades in India are of course of Nagan symbolism. Dr.Yusel in his "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" (p.139) notes,"...highly unusual serpentine shaped swords that began to appear in the Ottoman world from the time of Sultan Bayezid II onwards. It seems hard to imagine that these swords had a use other than ceremonial".
In Pant (p.56-57) discussing nagan type swords, he notes serrated zig zag blades and that "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th c. AD".

In considering the purpose of the luk, or waves, on the blades of the Keris, I would defer to the knowledge of those enthusiasts here, however it is my impression that the number of these 'luk' is significant in symbolism in the blade itself.

It is important to also consider toothed, or saw type blades, typically intended for utility or practical purposes on bayonets and the short swords of pioneers in military units. These dual purpose weapons were often misperceived as barbaric weapons to cause horrific wounds, but of course were more tools than weapons, and were quite impractical in that use.

Despite the earlier case closed status on this topic, I simply wanted to add more detail on why the wavy, undulating or serpentine (nagan) blade would be more likely considered ceremonial or symbolic. While the toothed or saw blade would be somewhat impractical in most cutting or especially thrusting action, the serrated blade may have guaged functional merit.

Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Jim, if you ever see a cat burglar running out trough the window with a bunch of your books from your library, please dont aim for the head. It could kill me...

[nechesh]

Jim, Thanks for your usual level of scholarly research. I have always appreciatedyour diligence in keeping this an academic forum. I find little argument with most of what you stated, but it still must be pointed out that to the Moro the wavy or undulating blade was combat ready, not merely ceremonial. And no one can doubt the levels of effectiveness they brought to that form.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Nechesh,
Thank you so much for the kind words. Point well taken on the Moro kris, and I'm glad you noted that,these weapons were indeed used most effectively by these fierce warriors. In reviewing Robert Cato's outstanding article in "Arts of Asia" in Jan/Feb 1991, "Islamic Swords of the Southern Philippines", he notes that all of the three basic forms of Moro kris blade carry nagan representation. In this the straight blade example (sundang espada), actually is intended to represent the serpent at rest, while the other two with degrees of undulation represent it in varying stages of motion.

The Moro kris is truly an exceptional example of a weapon which often carries varying degree of undulation in its blade, and is clearly a fighting example of sword carrying such symbolism. That it was effective is well marked by the fact that the Moro's remained unsubdued for over three hundred years, and thier ferocity in battle legendary.

All best regards,
Jim