Questions about Tabar axe

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????

[Drabant1701]

I found some axes online that are mounted with shafts in similar matter as the large axes. Theay are refered to as being from india. And although the large axes are persian in apperance they may well be made in India. They most accurate (and safely boring) term form them would most likely be Indo-Persian.

Regarding when it was made the safe term would be 19th century. But one has to ask the question when was there a demand for this type of decorative weapon. I still think that this axe (large one) was made for export as an display piece for someone in europe or america. They may have been used for some specific purpose, such as world fairs (first on in London 1851) or even sold at retailer. My guess is that its made mid to late 19th century, but that is just my opinion.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For form...certainly on the Persian Tabarizin or saddle hatchet...saddle axe.... I would observe http://www.caravanacollection.com/pr....html#more-425 bearing in mind that axes similar to these were produced up to and beyond the Qajar Dynasty ...up to 1923 and beyond... and during that time were used as parade axes. I look for axe manufacturers in that late period but nothing yet... however I see no reason why they could not have continued in production in Iran but not forgetting that they were used in several neighboring countries as announced by the word Tabarizin spanning across the spectrum ... viz;

Tabar (axe)
Ammended in italics From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indian

(Sind) tabar battle axe, late 18th century or earlier, crescent shape 5-inch-long head with a square hammer opposite of the blade, 22-inch-long steel haft, the end of the haft unscrews to reveal a 5-inch or longer slim blade. Heavily patinated head and handle with traces of engraving. India

During the 17th and 18th centuries, the tabar battle axe was a standard weapon of the mounted warriors of India, Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan. Made entirely of metal or with a wood haft, it had a strongly curved blade and a hammer-headed poll and was often decorated with scroll work. Sometimes a small knife was inserted in the tabar's hollow haft.

The tabar (also called tabarzin, which means "saddle axe") is a type of battle axe. The term tabar is used for axes originating from the Ottoman Empire, Persia, Armenia, India and surrounding countries and cultures. As a loanword taken through Iranian Scythian, the word tabar is also used in most Slavic languages as the word for axe (e.g. Russian: топор).


Persia

The tabarzin (saddle axe) (Persian: تبرزین‎‎; sometimes translated "saddle-hatchet") is the traditional battle axe of Persia (Iran). It bears one or two crescent-shaped blades or the well known powerful stubby axe shape with hammer head on one side and heavy axe on the other. The long form of the tabar was about seven feet long, while a shorter version was about three feet long. What makes the Persian axe unique is the less broad handle, which is light and usually metallic.

The tabarzin was sometimes carried as a symbolic weapon by wandering dervishes (Muslim ascetic worshippers).The word tabar for axe was directly borrowed into Armenian as tapar (Armenian: տապար) from Middle Persian tabar,as well as into Proto-Slavonic as "topor" (*toporъ), the latter word known to be taken through Scythian,and is still the common Slavic word for axe.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????

No argument against use/production of Tabars in Turkey or Indo-Persian areal. No argument that the ones shown here are of an Indo-Persian or just Persian pattern and decoration. No argument that they might have been made locally late 19 or even early 20th century.

But you were mentioning Europe. Any evidence that some Spanish, French or any other European company produced them en masse for souvenir purposes? This is my only question.

And as for examples, google "scythian axe", ancestors of Persians.
You will find tons of socketed examples dating to BCE

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

No argument against use/production of Tabars in Turkey or Indo-Persian areal. No argument that the ones shown here are of an Indo-Persian or just Persian pattern and decoration. No argument that they might have been made locally late 19 or even early 20th century.

But you were mentioning Europe. Any evidence that some Spanish, French or any other European company produced them en masse for souvenir purposes? This is my only question.

And as for examples, google "scythian axe", ancestors of Persians.
You will find tons of socketed examples dating to BCE

Ariel, Blacksmith mentioned that these types were made for the Paris World Expo 1900, I mentioned reading that they were made in Europe, who knows if either of these statements is correct but this is not an unheard of situation, one example is the Khedive of Egypts armor (helmets, hauberks, cuirass) which he had made in Europe and this was during the 1800s.

I have never seen any proof that these axe were made outside of India / Persia, but they are not constructed in the manner that axe from these regions were usually constructed. One thing is the huge size and weight, I have compared some traditionally made axe to the one of this type that I own, you can clearly see that while it resembles some Indo-Persian axe heads it is of a completely different type. If made in Indian / Persia why suddenly start using a completely different construction method? Yes there are a few socketed weapons examples but duting the time period we are discussing this is not the normal method of construction, Early Ottoman maces used a socketed construction but the was in the 16th - 17th century and I can not remember seeing any Indo-Persian axe made this way except these very recognizable examples.

Originally Posted by Blacksmith

Hello, I have seen these kind of axes with different kind of blade styles and with same haft style and they werw all mentioned to be made for the Paris World Exhibition in the beginning of the 1900. So not made for the actuall use.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding discussion here!!
Estcrh and Ibrahiim, thank you for the great images and references. These really help in following the talking points here.
I had not thought of these 'Oriental' (collective term used in earlier times to include India, Arabia etc) weapons being produced in Europe, but as has been noted, they certainly were in many cases.
As also mentioned, mail armor, helmets etc were made in England for the Khedive of Egypt's forces.
There was a great demand for 'exotic ' arms and items in Europe, so it does not seem unreasonable that commercial sources would not respond.
In the Sudan, many of the 'souvenier' items including spear heads etc. were produced in Birmingham to supply the souks .

It seems that the tabar was not typically a preference as a weapon, but more often served in parade and ceremonial or court situations.

[estcrh]

Interesting!!!

You are bidding on a antique 19th century decorative or processional axe. Very well made and quite large. The blade is fashioned in Indo Persian Tabarzin style, it is large 7.5 inches long with a 5 inches wide blade probably made from bronze or copper showing patina. Typical engraved or chiseled decoration on Persian style. The shaft is made from wood and has a carved section for grip also a steel collar on the top section keeping the blade in place. The axe is 38 inches long. Very impressive piece. Probably French manufacture.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Interesting!!!

Indeed interesting find. The shaft on this one is also very similar to other types of axes in this thread. French manufacture could support the World Fair theory.

Another possibility is that the axe heads where made in India exported to europe to be assembled with shafts there.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems that the tabar was not typically a preference as a weapon, but more often served in parade and ceremonial or court situations.

Jim, I think that the actual use of axe, mace and war hammer in the Ottoman empire, Indian and Persia is neither well understood or well documented. I think that these types of weapons had their place along with other weapons available to warriors and that they were used when the situation call for it.


Persian Archery and Swordsmanship: Historical Martial Arts of Iran
Author: Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Mace fighting (gorzzani) and Axe fighting (tabarzani).

Different types of maces and axes were used by Persian warriors during combat. Both maces as well as axes were powerful bludgeoning weapons that could easily break the enemy`s armor. This means that both types of weapons were used when the enemy wore a heavy armor that could not be penetrated by swords. Persian treatises, epics, poems and historical manuscripts report that Persian warriors were able to crush the helmets and armor of their opponents using these weapons during combat. Certain expressions describing the function of these weapons exist in the Persian language, such as gorz-e meqfarkub (a helmet-pounding mace) and amud-e maqzšekāf (brain-splitting mace). The mace did not only serve as an efficient weapon, but it also served as a symbol of power. Similarly, Persian manuscripts talk about the efficiency of the axe as a weapon with the use of terms such as tabarzin-e ostexānšekan (a bone-breaking saddle axe) in the manuscript Tārix-e Ahmad Šāhi from the 18th century and tabar-e maqzšekāfande(brain-splitting axe) in the manuscript Abu Moslemnāme from the 10th century. The hero Abu Moslem, as reported in the treatise Abu Moslemnāme, fought only with an axe.

There are four different terms in Persian to refer to the mace: a) amud, b) gorz, c) gorze, and d) čomāq. Nowadays one uses the term čomāq to refer to a stick. In Iran, the use of the mace as a weapon of war had a long tradition going back to ancient Iran. Maces were not only used for warfare but they were also used to hunt down animals. Maces began to be used from the beginning of the Bronze Age (3000–1200 C.E.) and also during the later periods including the Islamic period of Iran (651 C.E. until the end of the Qājār period [1925 C.E.]). The mace was a simple weapon but very efficient, and there were many different types of maces. There are also examples with a head made of stone, bronze iron or steel. Additionally, with the passage of time, the mace transformed into a symbol of power and a form of insignia used in ceremonies.

There are two different words used to refer to the axe in Persian: a) tabar and b) tabarzin. The term tabar (axe) could be found in numerous manuscripts from the 10th century but tabar also refers to a variation of an axe meant for the combat tabar-e jangi (war axe). There was also a variation of the term tabar that was used by dervishes and at the same time it was used in the ceremonies such as tabar-e zarrin (a golden axe; a gold-inlaid, gold-overlaid axe) in the 14th-century manuscript Tārix-e Firuzšāhi. On the other hand, the term tabarzin significa “saddle axe” and can be found in numerous manuscripts. The 19th century manuscript Rostam al-Tavārix reports about prison guards (nasgči) who were armed with axes.

The system of Razmafzar also teaches the techniques of maces and axes in Iranian martial tradition. Similar to swords, the techniques of using axes and maces are analyzed and presented starting from epics stories from the tenth century C.E. until the end of the Qājār period. These techniques include carrying the mace, techniques of mace attacks, defense techniques with a mace, combinations of fighting with the mace, general aspects about the axe, techniques of attack with an axe and combinations with an axe.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The flexibility demonstrated with the axe is surprising and it could be used in the thrust especially if it had a spike extending beyond the axe head...and some had the addition of a concealed long spike in the haft. Using the left arm with shield to parry often enabled a decisive strike to the head or neck targets with the saddle axe in the right hand causing severe dental treatment for the opponent and worse...
I suspect that the Qajari period was responsible for the parade axe syndrome but that the axe proper ...as a battle axe and probably using very similar techniques as for the mace... was an ideal solution to heavily armoured cavalry impervious to sword and other bladed weapons but which the saddle axe was well capable. I get a headache thinking about that !