Questions about Tabar axe

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

You are right about it not being for actual use. First of all its not sharpened. Second its to big and heavy to actually fight with, you could only strike once or twice before you got exhausted..........................Some other reflections: If there are two identical, there are more out there.

Your right, I have seen several very similar examples of these socketed axe, the ones that had a shaft all had a tassle attached near the top. I have also heard that they were used for some sort of display etc and may have actually been manufactured in Europe but I have no proof of this. Here is one that I have, it has been dipped / silvered in some way, very heavy and unsharpened.

[Drabant1701]

@Estcrh
Thanks for your replay. Your idea about them being made in europe made me look into other regions then Persia. I found a handful of battle axes that are said to be made in India with different heads but similar shaft construction. I found several on Herman historica and one on Ebay.


Although the decoration differs I think the style and construction looks very similar. This could indicate that the Tabar axes discussed in the thread is also from this indian region.

[ariel]

It is my impression that the idea of a relatively modern and/or souvenir origin of many Indian/ Indo-Persian examples of arms and armor traditionally attributed to 17-18 century is beginning to get firm hold ( at least here).

In the absense of reliable dating and established provenance we may have to give a fresh look at our collections and, certainly, at the items offered for sale, no matter what authorities pronounce their ancient origin.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is my impression that the idea of a relatively modern and/or souvenir origin of many Indian/ Indo-Persian examples of arms and armor traditionally attributed to 17-18 century is beginning to get firm hold ( at least here).

In the absense of reliable dating and established provenance we may have to give a fresh look at our collections and, certainly, at the items offered for sale, no matter what authorities pronounce their ancient origin.

There is no such thing as an "expert", some people just have a little more knowledge.

These types of socketed axe may not even be Indo-Persian, let alone Persian. This brings into question the method used to make them, are these actually chisled or was some other method used such as machining?

HUGE late 18th C. Persian Safavid Chiselled Tabarzin Axe. The largest of this type of axe I've seen. Very finely chiselled parade axehead, with fine chiselling throughout. This was likely a parade piece. The axehead is made in one piece with the metal part of the shaft or it was welded together at some point. The shaft appears to be a Victorian shaft made for this axe, and the entire piece was lacquered as well. The quality of the chiselling on the axehead is some of the best I've seen, and coupled with the size it's a one of a kind axe. See the comparison pictures with the normal sized axes for sale as well. Overall length is 38", axehead is 8" in length and 4" blade length.

[ariel]

Well, the geschtalt is clearly Persian/Indo-Persian. The identical decorative patterns suggest mass production.
IMHO, the likelihood that they were made in Europe is vanishingly low ( more likely, zero), unless you have evidence to the contrary. New shafts would not count as such.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the geschtalt is clearly Persian/Indo-Persian. The identical decorative patterns suggest mass production.
IMHO, the likelihood that they were made in Europe is vanishingly low ( more likely, zero), unless you have evidence to the contrary. New shafts would not count as such.

Ariel, from what I have seen the shafts are original equipment, they are all very similar and all have that red tassle at the top. Now if you look at known examples of Indo-Persian axe I do not think that socketed axe are very common but these strange examples all have a socket. There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In the shape of axe at #1 ~ I see Tabar saddle axe form.(Tabarzin). Persian, though the style often refers to Indo Persian. Often we get somewhat confused over other axe types namely Qajar single and two headed axes which we often observe as Parade axe form although, some of these may well be battle axes as well...One below, top, is a 3 pounder clearly meant to inflict damage. Goantiques states;

Quote''Outstanding quality Indo Persian war axe -Tabar from the Qajar Dynasty period, circa 1750. 7 inches (17 ½ cm) long, large steel crescent blade, most likely Damascus steel wootz is highly decorated on both sides with two Persian aristocrats sitting beside a tree and greatly inlaid in gold koftgari. The loop on the middle has cartouches with Arabic calligraphy. The back of the blade is decorated in arabesque and silver inlaid. The octagonal, steel haft is gold inlaid and cut in a swirled pattern. The axe is very heavy compared to similar Persian axes from the Qajar Dynasty, and is weighing 3 pounds. References: “Weapons- an International Encyclopedia form 5000 BC to 2000 AD” by David Harding, London 1980 + 1990. Overall length: approximately 29 ¾ inches (76 cm)." Unquote.

Others of the single/two head form with these flanged blades are often seen carried by wandering Sufi; thus I understand it as a Sufi badge of office as well.
Shown also some Sufi with various axe types. Other pictures of Axes/Qajari forms...etc

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ah! Artwork !!!! Note also that an axe with a point was ideal for thrusting at close range and that axes came in weird and wonderful shapes. The haft could also conceal a spike weapon..

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????