On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Masich]

I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history.
I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean.
Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection?

Andy Masich

[machinist]

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

[Masich]

Originally Posted by machinist

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

This is a brilliant supposition! Surely you are correct--the guards all have two rows of "eyes" neatly arranged within the fan-like striations. Others, including me, who saw peacocks were all "fowled up." I'm going to start looking at Yucatan native and folk traditions.
Andy Masich
PS It makes me wonder if any of these guards may have been painted when new--can you imagine staring down a blade with all those eyes looking back at you?
PPS These turkeys in my backyard inspired me to write the peacock post in this thread in the first place--I didn't realize that these birds (or their Yucatan cousins) might have actually been the original inspiration for these sword guards.

[Masich]

Originally Posted by machinist

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

I may be going off half "cocked" on a wild turkey chase, but if this hypothesis is correct, it could be historically significant. The ocellated turkey lives only in a 130,000 km2 (50,000 sq mi) range in the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico—which includes all or part the states of Quintana Roo, Campeche, Yucatán, Tabasco, and Chiapas—as well as the northern parts of Belize and Guatemala. This may have been the point of origin for this guard design. The grip my have North African roots with a Spanish connection to the New World. It's also still possible that the Portuguese brought the form with captive Africans to Brazil and the general sword form may have spread from there northward to Central America, where the shell guard morphed into the turkey form seen on the guards posted.
It interesting that the Spanish were impressed with the ocellated turkeys that the natives had domesticated for their feathers for nearly 1,000 years and, later, for meat. So taken with the birds, the conquistadores exported breeding pairs back to Europe.

Andy Masich

[machinist]

It would be nice to think a piece of this puzzle is close to solved, but the answer may be for awhile "it's complicated".
The Caribbean that produced these was a rich mix indeed. I guess it is time to look at the picture collections again and hope to see a turkeys wattle or snood

[Jim McDougall]

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, I find it most compelling with the attribution of Peacock feather decoration in the hilt....The note that Kabyl Berber involvement in Mexico is further fascinating.. and overall that the sword ( possibly derived from Iberian style) and its derivatives sketch a web of involvement wrapped around Spanish global activity from the Manila Galleons and grasping at Zanzibar and Moroccan/Algerian styles. The fact that Spanish ships also entered and exited the Indian Ocean via the Cape of Good Hope as well as via the Atlantic Acapulco Filipies run shows how diverse the designs of regional styles became... not to mention a similar sword on the waist of a captain of the Trained Bands of London pictured in Islamic arms and Armour by the late Antony North. (Tobias Blose; Captain.)

This is a very revealing thread !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Rick]

Agree, it's nice to see this thread resurface.

What has always puzzled me is the purpose of re-profiling the point of some of these blades into a sort of clipper ship bow shape.
What would be the function of this configuration?

Maybe I missed that from the previous posts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!!

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your remarks ... This must be a sword type with the widest and most diverse of all the swords ... I note the -potential Iberian link in this weapon and how it has morphed across the globe following centuries of Spanish trade, exploration and war. I note with interest how a peacock design could well be responsible for the cruder form shown in South American types from earlier Spanish form as you note..and discovered an even more compelling design on Espadas Ropera...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, With a number of threads with related themes I have chosen this one as the more focussed on the subject of these weapons to launch a querry on the links between form...between Moroccan and Zanzibari and indeed between the style that sems to have developed in the Americas particularly around the Caribbean carried there by war and trade not least between Spain and the Philipines via Accupulco etc...
My first observation is combined with a quite early time scale... That of the trained bands of London; ...A sword on the waist of Captain Tobias Blosse in the mid 1600 s clearly of the hilt style Moroccan. Showing also a photo of the Moroccan Style. Both pictures from the late Antony Norths "Islamic Arms and Armour"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.