Shashka??? Or what ????

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

This is a perfect example of the same confusion. Even the one who wrote the description concedes this is a Persian blade, yet he identifies it EXCLUSIVELY by its hilt.

If this line of thougt is correct, then whatever sword bears a characteristic Indian disc-shaped pommel, is a Tulwar.

We are talking about kilij not tulwar. You and Alex can believe whatever you want, Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani is a well known author and authority on this subject, maybe you and Alex know something he does not?? This particular kilij is in Weapons of Warriors - Famous Antique Swords of the Near East.

[mariusgmioc]

While I respect Dr. Khroasani's oppinion, I disagree with him on this one!

I believe it is the blade that should primarily define the type of the sword, and my previous example with the Tulwar hilt on many different swords clearly illustrates and substantiates my line of thought.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

While I respect Dr. Khroasani's oppinion, I disagree with him on this one!

You and Alex should stop embarassing yourselves, your opinions are not the only ones on this subject.

[mariusgmioc]

Disagreeing and debating a subject is not embarasment but learning. And none of us, including Dr. Khorasani is the holder of the absolute truth.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Disagreeing and debating a subject is not embarasment but learning. And none of us, including Dr. Khorasani is the holder of the absolute truth.

Both you and Alex do not appear to want to learn anything, I am simply pointing out that there are differing opinions on this subject, who can prove which opinion in correct. Terms do change over time and the internet has a lot to do with this, search engines need tag words in order to bring up text and images. Many collectors and dealers have used certain tag words and these are now part of the way certain weapons are described online, other people choose another method. What a weapon is called in its native country and language often has nothing to do with what it is called by English speaking collectors and dealers.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I believe it is the blade that should primarily define the type of the sword

With some swords that is usually the case, with others as I have pointed out that is not always the case, there are exceptions.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I believe it is the blade that should primarily define the type of the sword, and my previous example with the Tulwar hilt on many different swords clearly illustrates and substantiates my line of thought.

Then following this line of thinking there is no such thing as an "Omani khanjar", as all double edged single curved dagger blades from the same region should be jambiya while the all double edged recurved dagger blades should be khanjar.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Then following this line of thinking there is no such thing as an "Omani khanjar", as all double edged single curved dagger blades from the same region should be jambiya while the all double edged recurved dagger blades should be khanjar.

Exactly, as the Omani Khanjar is practically the same weapon as the Yemeni Jambia... with a local touch. So to me they are the same weapon with two names... pretty much like the Caucasian Kindjal and Qama...

And there I am inconsistent with... MYSELF.

Ouch!

[Helleri]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Exactly, as the Omani Khanjar is practically the same weapon as the Yemeni Jambia... with a local touch. So to me they are the same weapon with two names... pretty much like the Caucasian Kindjal and Qama...

And there I am inconsistent with... MYSELF.

Ouch!

Metalworks and ceramics were traded between India and states all long that coast down as far as Mombasa on the sea route of the silk road. But Oman and Yemen are smack dab next to each other...Usually the name of a knife often turns out to just be what a knife is called or some defining feature of the knife in the native tongue.

It's entirely possible that Yemeni Jambiya and Omani Khanjar are simply the same knife. But perhaps Yemen had the port worth visiting on the sea route of the silk road so they may have ended up adopting the Indian word for it?

It could also be a simple longstanding mis-classification. Someone labeling things for some museum or private collection could have simply got it wrong. And for lack of a better idea from successive peers it stuck and fell into how we reference things as a misnomer.

In any case I think it's safe to say that objectively, they are the same thing, and should both just be called Jambiya (Omani-Jambiya and Yemeni-Jambiya).

[ariel]

It is even simpler than that: Yemen on the Western border of the peninsula was purely Arabic and a purely Arab name was used: janb= thigh, side.
Oman on the Eastern border had significant Persian influence, and they used Persian name.

Scabbard rings notwithstanding:-)))

In this business rigidity does not help: Mughal Sossun Pata carried an Indian very much yataghan-like blade and tulwar handle. But I have a sword with a tulwar handle and a genuine Ottoman yataghan blade. Is it still Sossun Pata or not? :-)

Or: some old Tulwars had a cup-like pommel with a central baluster and a classical curved blade. They brought the entire pattern to Northern Sumatra and it stayed there . Only the locals manufacturing it call it Piso Podang. What should it be called now?

Or: Southern Indians combined basket handle with a straight European blade and called it Firangi. A tad North an identical sword utilizing locally-made straight blade was called Sukhela or Dhup in different areas. Are we talking about 3 different swords?

Or: Russians adopted Caucasian Shashka , a guardless saber, as their official military regulation weapon. Bit later on, they added a D-guard to it and continued to call it Shashka. Are we going to argue with the Russian Department of War?

Weapons travel, acquire different owners, mutate, add or subtract features, are called by different names etc. We are dealing with products of centuries-long processes. Rigidly sticking to a moniker or a description mentioned in one or another glossary impoverishes our understanding of history.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

Are we going to argue with the Russian Department of War?

God forbid NO, we are definitely not going to argue with the Russian Department of War!

And your examples... wow... what a mess with the names!

The good part is that I may have gotten the picture... I guess...

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Exactly, as the Omani Khanjar is practically the same weapon as the Yemeni Jambia... with a local touch. So to me they are the same weapon with two names.

I agree with you on this and some other things you have said. I do not make up the names being used, I just make note of them, I wanted to point out that there is a significant group of people that do identify certain select bladed weapons by the hilt with kilij, pulwar and tulwar among these.

Whether you say a sword is a tulwar hilted shamshir or a tulwar with a shamshir blade it is still the same sword and most collectors will know what is being described either way. As far a tulwar hilts go, some blades are so radically different that have a completely seperate name, khanda, karach and sossun patah are examples.