Shashka??? Or what ????

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I beg to differ.

I have seen many authors making the very same confusion and identifying a sword exclusively by its hilt.

And yes, the hilt can be used for defining/identifying a sword, but when the blade is not very characteristic and cannot be identified as such.

In this case, the Ottoman Kilij is characterized primarily by the presence of the yelman and in lesser measure by the reinforced T-shaped spine extending along about two thirds of the blade and the fuller which the Shamshir lacks. Also the archetypal Kilij has a specific shape with a very shallow curvature (or no curvature at all) for the portion of the blade near the hilt, and a very deep curvature closer to the tip like the one in your second photo.

Of course there are blades that display mixed characteristics (as you may encounter "Shamshirs" having fullers or even an yelman) and cannot be accurately identified. In such cases allocating a specific name other than the generic terms of "sword" or "sabre" would be rather inaccurate and misleading, but it is not the case with the Ottoman Shamshir in your photo.

If however, you are Turkish, then the term Kilij (more accurately Kilic) will become also accurate, but only for you, because in Turkish, Kilic, literally means sword... any sword. But then, in the same line of thought, you would be correct calling "Kilic" even a Japanese Katana or an Italian Rapier.

That is your interpretation of the subject but it is not necessarily correct for other people, expecially English speaking collectors / dealers. Kilij has come to mean any Ottoman pistol grip sword whether it has a yelman or not, straight blade or highly curved blade, T spine or shamshir blade etc.

The same goes for shashka, if it looks like a shashka it is called "shashka", if it can be further identified such as Bukhara, Circassian, Afghan, Russian then that is added to the description.

[kronckew]

how about a russian klych shashka. note the scabbard ring placement...

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kronckew

how about a russian klych shashka. note the scabbard ring placement...

How authentic is this one? It is a cheap modern replica that is currently being sold online.

Links to items currently for sale are not allowed. Robert

This is a modern replica of a traditional cossack shashka sword made in Volgograd (former Stalingrad), Russia. The weight of this shashka is 700g The blade is 65G carbon steel hardened to 54 HRC Blade thickness is 6 mm, width 35mm The shashka has a nutwood riveted handle with three metal studs. Sheath is made of wood wrapped in leather. All decorative metal elements are made of brass. Blade length is 850 mm, handle - 17cm. Full tang, without any welded or sawed parts.

[kronckew]

[QUOTE=estcrh]How authentic is this one? It is a cheap modern replica that is currently being sold online.

Link removed. Robert
yes, that's the one, not posted as an antique, just to add another transliteration of kilij/kilic in klych. this one IS cheap but looks fairly well made.
video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihbG...ature=youtu.be

might buy one to play with. can't afford an antique that i could be brutal with...

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

... Kilij has come to mean any Ottoman pistol grip sword whether it has a yelman or not, straight blade or highly curved blade, T spine or shamshir blade etc...

I do not know how this came about. surely, some collectors have their ways and terminology "preferences", but traditionally, Kilij signifies the blade with yelman, not any blade with pistol grip. There are Indian blades with yelman and tulwar-type hilts that can be called Kilij-type blades because of specific blade profile, regardless of the grip. Likewise, there are Kilijes with other, not pistol hilt types. It is profile of the blade that makes it a Kilij to begin with.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

It is profile of the blade that makes it a Kilij to begin with.

Alex, according to who?

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Alex, according to who?

about every knowledgeable collector i know, and all decent books I read.
They all could be wrong, of course. Please substantiate your argument.

By the way, in Oriental Arms sample above, it states "shamshir blade in Turkish fittings". The Kilij/Shamshir title may refer to "Kilij" as a word for sword in Turkish language, as in other similar descriptions. but I have not seen anything saying any blade with pistol grip is a Kilij.

We had similar argument before about "Saif" as any sword with Arab hilt
Word Saif means sword in Arabic, just as Kilij is sword in Turkish. What this has to do with the hilt type?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

about every knowledgeable collector i know, and all decent books I read.
They all could be wrong, of course. Please substantiate your argument.

By the way, in Oriental Arms sample above, it states "shamshir blade in Turkish fittings". The Kilij/Shamshir title may refer to "Kilij" as a word for sword in Turkish language, as in other similar descriptions. but I have not seen anything saying any blade with pistol grip is a Kilij.

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1072_full.html

[ALEX]

Good, this is a Turkish\Ottoman shamshir that someone called Kilij. Do you have more reliable references, not on-line ads?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good, this is a Turkish\Ottoman shamshir that someone called Kilij. Do you have more reliable references, not on-line ads?

Alex you call it what you want, other people will do the same.