Shashka??? Or what ????

estcrh · 28th March 2016, 02:38 AM

The point of the blade reminds me of some pulwar I have seen.

Quote:

A shasqua
dating: circa 1900
Strong, single-and false-edged blade with double groove and tang; grip featuring wooden grip scales and silver, partially carved and nielloed mounts. The sword knot shaped as a wooden barrel.
Provenance: Provenance: Caucasia

Dimensions: dimensions: length 97 cm.

David R · 28th March 2016, 12:44 PM

From my files.

ariel · 28th March 2016, 03:27 PM

David,
I do not think so.
Yours is a classical "Bukharan" saber of a shashka-like form with 5 rivets ( we discussed them already).
The one from Czerny's is a totally different animal, IMHO. Much closed to the Afghani "pseudo-shashka".

P.S.

A friend of mine from Belarus sent me pics of that sword published on another auction. Here we can see the upper part of the blade with the "box-like" system of fullers.
AFAIK, this is very typical of Afghani blades.

TVV · 28th March 2016, 06:36 PM

It is rare, but not completely uncommon for Afghan blades to have traveled West. Here is an example of such a blade, with a shashka hilt, in clearly Ottoman scabbard:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=shashka

Teodor

ariel · 28th March 2016, 07:32 PM

Gentlemen,
Here is an Afghani Pulwar with identical fullering.

I checked Askhabov, Astvatsaturyan and Rivkin's books as well as my own Caucasian Shashkas and there are no similar examples.
Moreover, look at the handle: the "cheeks" are separated by wide distance covered with a strap. This is absolutely incompatible with Caucasian examples, but identical to Afghani pesh kabzes, chooras and pseudo-shashkas.

The only strange thing is the "dimple" next to the bolster for the index finger and ( perhaps) rather short pommel.

But the more I look at it, the stronger I feel for the Afghani origin.

ariel · 28th March 2016, 07:57 PM

Teodor,
I re-read your topic re. Afghani blade in Caucasian mounts.
I guess there might be examples of Afghani blades traveling West. Caucasian mercenaries ( Georgians, Armenians and Circassians) constituted the backbone of Shah Abbas' cavalry and fought in Afghanistan and India. There is a sword in the Hermitage collection consisting of a Khanda blade and Georgian handle.

But the construction of the handle on the Czerny's example absolutely excludes Gaucasian origin and is strongly tilted toward Afghanistan.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2016, 08:09 PM

I must admit , especially with Ariel not having an exact bead on this thing, that it is quite subtly an anomaly which seems to fall between the cracks on many counts.
Between his knowledge on the weaponry of these regions and the sources he notes not able to define it, any precise classification seems unlikely.

I do agree however that this does seem N. Indian, that is from Afghan regions, and the expected hybridization which comes from these and Central Asian areas.

While of course the hilt is fashioned to look like a shashka, the structure is quite different. The distinctive 'cleft' is achieved by using what appears to be a metal block 'sandwiched' between the grip plates and clearly profiled to match that curious forefinger nock at the base of the grips.

There is no metal bolster at the base of the grip as known to be typical on the 'pseudo-shashkas' of Afghanistan, and while this has the 'feel' it does not correspond to typical Bukharen sabres (as posted by David), which indeed 'usually' have five grip rivets.

The blade as well pointed out, does seem remarkably similar to similar seen on other Afghan swords. That blockish fuller type effect seems to recall some of the Persian trade blades, which I have seen with a kind of wrap around fuller near the forte.

One feature not yet addressed is the curious starburst device on the pommel area of the grip, and if memory serves, that resembles something like this in Kubachi type embossed silver hilts and in that same hilt location. I cannot yet find images, but it does seem that such devices were often placed on Caucasian (usually Daghestani) hilts with some award or other significance.

What makes that so intriguing is that here is a distinct Caucasian affectation added to a hilt designed to approximate a Caucasian shashka, with a clearly N.Indian/Afghan blade( the ricasso), but the entire assembly is constructed quite unlike the various forms mentioned overall.

mariusgmioc · 29th March 2016, 04:45 PM

Before continuing the discussion maybe it would be better to clarify WHAT IDENTFIES A SWORD?! Is it the blade? Is it the hilt? Is it both?

In my understanding it is the blade that primarily identifies a sword (and when I say sword I mean it in its broadest sense, including sabres), then secondarily comes the hilt. More exactly, have a look at the Czerny's last auction (no. 57) at lot no. 2. Is that a Shamshir or a Tulwar?! In my oppinion it is clearly a shamshir because of the typical geometry of the blade. If you think it is a tulwar because of the hilt... well then think twice after having a look at lot no. 8 which also has the very same rounded pommel Tulwar hilt, yet is undoubtedly a Sousson Patah. To get a better grasp of it, you can also have a look at lot no. 11 which is a Khanda, despite the same Tulwar type hilt.

In the case in the opening of this thread neither the blade, nor the hilt bear the characteristics of a shashka namely a moderate, rather constant curvature along the whole length of the blade, a rather constant width of the blade, a full length fuller/fullers and an arched point (similar to the Kissaki of the Japanese swords but without any clear separation line between the point and the rest of the blade). To better understand what I mean, please have a look at lots no. 200-202 of the same Czerny auction that illustrate rather typical Shashkas.

In my opinion the sabre you were inquiring about is an imitation of a Shashka that would be most accurately described as a sabre, and it remained unsold for a good reason!

PS: I bought many blades from Czerny's as they are one of the leading auction houses dealing weapons.

28th March 2016, 12:44 PM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,129	From my files. Attached Images

28th March 2016, 03:27 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, I do not think so. Yours is a classical "Bukharan" saber of a shashka-like form with 5 rivets ( we discussed them already). The one from Czerny's is a totally different animal, IMHO. Much closed to the Afghani "pseudo-shashka". P.S. A friend of mine from Belarus sent me pics of that sword published on another auction. Here we can see the upper part of the blade with the "box-like" system of fullers. AFAIK, this is very typical of Afghani blades. Attached Images

28th March 2016, 07:32 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, Here is an Afghani Pulwar with identical fullering. I checked Askhabov, Astvatsaturyan and Rivkin's books as well as my own Caucasian Shashkas and there are no similar examples. Moreover, look at the handle: the "cheeks" are separated by wide distance covered with a strap. This is absolutely incompatible with Caucasian examples, but identical to Afghani pesh kabzes, chooras and pseudo-shashkas. The only strange thing is the "dimple" next to the bolster for the index finger and ( perhaps) rather short pommel. But the more I look at it, the stronger I feel for the Afghani origin. Attached Images

28th March 2016, 08:09 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,578	I must admit , especially with Ariel not having an exact bead on this thing, that it is quite subtly an anomaly which seems to fall between the cracks on many counts. Between his knowledge on the weaponry of these regions and the sources he notes not able to define it, any precise classification seems unlikely. I do agree however that this does seem N. Indian, that is from Afghan regions, and the expected hybridization which comes from these and Central Asian areas. While of course the hilt is fashioned to look like a shashka, the structure is quite different. The distinctive 'cleft' is achieved by using what appears to be a metal block 'sandwiched' between the grip plates and clearly profiled to match that curious forefinger nock at the base of the grips. There is no metal bolster at the base of the grip as known to be typical on the 'pseudo-shashkas' of Afghanistan, and while this has the 'feel' it does not correspond to typical Bukharen sabres (as posted by David), which indeed 'usually' have five grip rivets. The blade as well pointed out, does seem remarkably similar to similar seen on other Afghan swords. That blockish fuller type effect seems to recall some of the Persian trade blades, which I have seen with a kind of wrap around fuller near the forte. One feature not yet addressed is the curious starburst device on the pommel area of the grip, and if memory serves, that resembles something like this in Kubachi type embossed silver hilts and in that same hilt location. I cannot yet find images, but it does seem that such devices were often placed on Caucasian (usually Daghestani) hilts with some award or other significance. What makes that so intriguing is that here is a distinct Caucasian affectation added to a hilt designed to approximate a Caucasian shashka, with a clearly N.Indian/Afghan blade( the ricasso), but the entire assembly is constructed quite unlike the various forms mentioned overall. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th March 2016 at 08:38 PM.

29th March 2016, 04:45 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	What is what?! Before continuing the discussion maybe it would be better to clarify WHAT IDENTFIES A SWORD?! Is it the blade? Is it the hilt? Is it both? In my understanding it is the blade that primarily identifies a sword (and when I say sword I mean it in its broadest sense, including sabres), then secondarily comes the hilt. More exactly, have a look at the Czerny's last auction (no. 57) at lot no. 2. Is that a Shamshir or a Tulwar?! In my oppinion it is clearly a shamshir because of the typical geometry of the blade. If you think it is a tulwar because of the hilt... well then think twice after having a look at lot no. 8 which also has the very same rounded pommel Tulwar hilt, yet is undoubtedly a Sousson Patah. To get a better grasp of it, you can also have a look at lot no. 11 which is a Khanda, despite the same Tulwar type hilt. In the case in the opening of this thread neither the blade, nor the hilt bear the characteristics of a shashka namely a moderate, rather constant curvature along the whole length of the blade, a rather constant width of the blade, a full length fuller/fullers and an arched point (similar to the Kissaki of the Japanese swords but without any clear separation line between the point and the rest of the blade). To better understand what I mean, please have a look at lots no. 200-202 of the same Czerny auction that illustrate rather typical Shashkas. In my opinion the sabre you were inquiring about is an imitation of a Shashka that would be most accurately described as a sabre, and it remained unsold for a good reason! PS: I bought many blades from Czerny's as they are one of the leading auction houses dealing weapons.

28th March 2016, 06:36 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,716	It is rare, but not completely uncommon for Afghan blades to have traveled West. Here is an example of such a blade, with a shashka hilt, in clearly Ottoman scabbard: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=shashka Teodor

28th March 2016, 07:57 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, I re-read your topic re. Afghani blade in Caucasian mounts. I guess there might be examples of Afghani blades traveling West. Caucasian mercenaries ( Georgians, Armenians and Circassians) constituted the backbone of Shah Abbas' cavalry and fought in Afghanistan and India. There is a sword in the Hermitage collection consisting of a Khanda blade and Georgian handle. But the construction of the handle on the Czerny's example absolutely excludes Gaucasian origin and is strongly tilted toward Afghanistan.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode