Unusually Large Caliber (?) Percussion Target / Dueling Pistols c1860

[Fernando K]

Hello, Dana

Howdawe pistol? Rifled?

Fernando K

[fernando]

No, not rifled ... as you look at the picture ...

[corrado26]

Just a note of the LONDON GAZETTE Decembre 4th 1894

"NOTICE TO CREDITORS AND DEBTORS.
The Subscriber Norman William Dougall hereby
gives notice that he has of this date disposed of
the business of Gun, Fishing Rod, and Tackle Maker,
carried on by him at No. 23 Gordon-street, Glasgow,
under the firm of J. D. Dougall and Sons, to Mr. Charles
I. Annan and Mr. John Retson.
Mr. Dougall will pay all debts due by said firm to the
date of transference, and the said Charles I. Annan and
John Retson are authorized to receive payment on behali
of Mr. Dougall of all debts due to the said firm.
J. D. DOUGALL and SONS.
N. W. DOUGALL.
Signed in presence of—
Robert Brown, Writer, 156 St. Vincentstreet,
Glasgow.
Robt. Carswell, Writer, 203 Hopestreeb,
Glasgow.
Glasgow, 28th November 1894."

corrado26

[Pukka Bundook]

Very nice pistols Dana.

Very nice indeed. Nice twist barrels, nice fences, Nice engraving and lovely locks!
The bores are not unusually large. We do see bores of pistols of musket size quite often.
2 thoughts come to mind, or two possible uses;

1, Pistols carried by a British officer (And I hate that term, as it is used far too much!) But being the bore they are, they would take the standard musket ball, which would reduce the supply problem.

2, Possibly to be carried in the hunting field or in a Howdah as suggested by Fernando.
This last suggestion has my nod as the most likely, as pistols carried on military excursions were often fitted with a lanyard ring.
Also the high quality suggests sporting use, though many officer arms were also of V. high quality.
Could you show us the lock-work?

I wish we could go back and look at the photos whilst replying, but I would say these pistols are from the 1840's, with the flat sided cocks (hammers) as by the 1850's we see more cocks of rounded form. (of course this isn't cast in stone!)

Congrats on a lovely set!!

Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Very nice pistols Dana.

Very nice indeed. Nice twist barrels, nice fences, Nice engraving and lovely locks!
The bores are not unusually large. We do see bores of pistols of musket size quite often.
2 thoughts come to mind, or two possible uses;

1, Pistols carried by a British officer (And I hate that term, as it is used far too much!) But being the bore they are, they would take the standard musket ball, which would reduce the supply problem.

2, Possibly to be carried in the hunting field or in a Howdah as suggested by Fernando.
This last suggestion has my nod as the most likely, as pistols carried on military excursions were often fitted with a lanyard ring.
Also the high quality suggests sporting use, though many officer arms were also of V. high quality.
Could you show us the lock-work?

I wish we could go back and look at the photos whilst replying, but I would say these pistols are from the 1840's, with the flat sided cocks (hammers) as by the 1850's we see more cocks of rounded form. (of course this isn't cast in stone!)

Congrats on a lovely set!!

Richard.

Thanks for your comments Richard.

To me the barrels look like they have a faux damascus finish.

I have had a chance to own and see "a few" percussion pistols from the mid 19th century. Most have bores sizes around 1/2 (.5) inch, and a few were a little larger, but I've never personally seen one with a bore that is almost 3/4 (.75) inches. I've been looking on-line to see if I could find some. Can you point me at some examples?

I should note that J. D. Dougall & Sons seems to have been making shotguns with this bore size during the time these pistols were made.

I know that officers of the period often purchased pistols like these for their own use. I have a distant relative who was an officer in the United States Marines during the first half of the 19th century. He owned a nice pair not unlike these in some ways. https://plus.google.com/+DanaWilliams/posts/6nwERRQVJfE

The best way to look at the photos while replying is to open another browser window and then view the original post in that window simultaneously. It is helpful.

I agree with you about dating by style, but the information I have shows that J. D. Dougall didn't open a London office until the 1860s.

I'll consider photographing the lock internals for you.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

The style of the cocks on these pistols appears to me more in line with the 40's rather than '60's but that's all I can say!

Dougall was famous for his Lockfast action, and is a very well known maker.

The barrels of your pistols are a stub iron twist, Nothing 'faux' about them.

I'm surprised you have had a hard time finding pistols of this calibre. They were never as common as say 16 or 14 bore, but do show up quite often.
I'd suggest looking at auction sales, or sale archives at places like Holts.

For a back-up in the hunting field or howdah, pistols of 12 to 10 bore are the norm rather than the exception.
My own pistols from this period are smaller bore than these, (16 bore, 20-bore or .62 calibre, and about 22 bore.) Apart from pocket pistols I think bores of half an inch are the exception rather than the rule.

"The Great Guns" by Harold L Peterson, has a chapter on howdah pistols.

You will also find that dragoon pistols, though severely plain are also of the same bore as yours, or just a little larger...roughly .76 calibre to take the standard musket ball.

Best Regards,
Richard.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

Just did a real quick search; "Percussion Manstopper".

Found the following on one page at Google;

Rock Island sold a pair of W/Richards in .65" cal.

Pair at Lewis Drake by W'm and Jno Rigby, Dublin, .69 cal.

On GunStar, (UK) a Harcourt 4" barreled man -stopper in .72 cal.

Guns international, Pair of Westley Richards in .65 cal.

Jno Denner ...Wilson (Dublin) .78 cal.

at 1894 & B4,..w/Richards man stopper in .72 cal

Vintage live auctions,...Bingham man stopper in .76 cal.

All the best,
Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Dana,

The style of the cocks on these pistols appears to me more in line with the 40's rather than '60's but that's all I can say!

Richard.

They sure do, put they are marked London, and Dougall doesn't seem to have been in London during that period. Should I put a date on them that I know is likely to be wrong?

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Dougall was famous for his Lockfast action, and is a very well known maker.

Richard.

True. This information was in my first post

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

The barrels of your pistols are a stub iron twist, Nothing 'faux' about them.

Richard.

They just don't look right to me. I think they may be 'faux', but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I'm surprised you have had a hard time finding pistols of this calibre. They were never as common as say 16 or 14 bore, but do show up quite often.
I'd suggest looking at auction sales, or sale archives at places like Holts.

For a back-up in the hunting field or howdah, pistols of 12 to 10 bore are the norm rather than the exception.
My own pistols from this period are smaller bore than these, (16 bore, 20-bore or .62 calibre, and about 22 bore.) Apart from pocket pistols I think bores of half an inch are the exception rather than the rule.

"The Great Guns" by Harold L Peterson, has a chapter on howdah pistols.

You will also find that dragoon pistols, though severely plain are also of the same bore as yours, or just a little larger...roughly .76 calibre to take the standard musket ball.

Best Regards,
Richard.

I'll check Peterson's book. I've certainly seen small calibers, and a few large caliber muzzleloading pistols. Just never seen anything this large from this period and with this style, but I am willing to learn. And that is why I asked the question here.

Thanks again.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Just a note of the LONDON GAZETTE Decembre 4th 1894

"NOTICE TO CREDITORS AND DEBTORS.
The Subscriber Norman William Dougall hereby
gives notice that he has of this date disposed of
the business of Gun, Fishing Rod, and Tackle Maker,
carried on by him at No. 23 Gordon-street, Glasgow,
under the firm of J. D. Dougall and Sons, to Mr. Charles
I. Annan and Mr. John Retson.
Mr. Dougall will pay all debts due by said firm to the
date of transference, and the said Charles I. Annan and
John Retson are authorized to receive payment on behali
of Mr. Dougall of all debts due to the said firm.
J. D. DOUGALL and SONS.
N. W. DOUGALL.
Signed in presence of—
Robert Brown, Writer, 156 St. Vincentstreet,
Glasgow.
Robt. Carswell, Writer, 203 Hopestreeb,
Glasgow.
Glasgow, 28th November 1894."

corrado26

Thanks for adding to my information on the Dongalls corrado26.

I've found a few ads and box labels.