Kindjals, Quamas and Quaddaras

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone,

I cant help feeling disappointed at the lack of response to my questions re the photos of my Kindjals that I recently posted obviously they are not interesting enough for comment, very disappointing

Miguel

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Everyone,

I cant help feeling disappointed at the lack of response to my questions re the photos of my Kindjals that I recently posted obviously they are not interesting enough for comment, very disappointing

Miguel

Hi Miguel

The kindjals that you posted are great ones and I love them all. The answer to the question: which part of the Caucasus they are from, is never going to be correct. Not only the styles and the designs have been borrowed and used everywhere in the Caucasus, but also every Caucasian will tell you that his country/region/town/village is the one that invented everything in the Caucasus, and sometimes in the world I can try to tell you my observations about the kindjals that you have. I call them kindjals, because this is what Russians call them (wrongly), but this way there will be no arguing about them being called a qama, khanchal or ghama.

#1 with the brass handle and modified blade. The blade could have originally been Caucasian, but was modified and the hilt was added most likely in Turkey, less likely in Persia, unless it is a fake one. Hard to tell from the photo.
#2, 3 and 4 definitely kindjals made in the Caucasus, the silver one most likely in Daghestan.
#5 is different. It is what could be called qaddara and most likely than not, made in Isfahan Persia. IMHO the reason it has a Caucasian handle, is because it was originally made by the Isfahan Armenians (who were deported there from Caucasus by Shah Abbas starting from AD 1604) and they kept the design i.e. continued making it the way they knew and just made it longer. (Also the shorter version is described as an Armenian kindjal/knife by Astvatsaturian in her "Weapons of the Caucasus" book, I will post a photo of the shorter Caucasian/Armenian version as soon as I get it.) BTW the name qaddara has an Indo-European root of of the word "cut". I.e. qaddara is the same as cutter-a (This is my own observation. All the other opinions are welcome, especially Farsi speakers'.)
#6 Kindjal made in Georgia (80%)
#7 Kindjal made in Chechnia or Daghestan 50% - 50%
As I said I can tell you if they were made in Caucasus (Including Transcaucasia) or not, but even that would not be 100% correct, as these daggers were very popular and even after the decline of the bladed weapon usage, they were and still are being made all over Caucasus, Middle East, Russia and even India out of all places. I am trying to gain a lot of information about the these kindjals myself and I will start a thread myself as soon as I am 90% certain about all the information that I have.

P.S. I will elaborate on the subject of the kindjals' origins separately, but one thing I can tell you for sure, these did not originate from Scythian akinakes.

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

#6 Kindjal made in Georgia (80%)

I didn't see the hallmark on this one before. Judging by the hallmark this was made in Russian Don region. 100%. The style of course is Caucasian, and that got me confused.

[mariusgmioc]

Qama/Quama/Kama is the Persian/Georgian/Turkish name and Kindjal is the Russian name FOR EXACTLY THE SAME WEAPON.

Many authors without thorough knowledge of the languages of the Caucasus area, make the mistake of considering the Qama and the Kindjal two diferent weapons, but THEY ARE NOT.

I researched this subject extensively and cross-checked it with my knowledgeable Persian, Georgian and Daghestani friends and the Daghestani Kindjal is absolutely identical in its caracterizing features to the Georgian Qama.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

Hi Miguel

The kindjals that you posted are great ones and I love them all. The answer to the question: which part of the Caucasus they are from, is never going to be correct. Not only the styles and the designs have been borrowed and used everywhere in the Caucasus, but also every Caucasian will tell you that his country/region/town/village is the one that invented everything in the Caucasus, and sometimes in the world I can try to tell you my observations about the kindjals that you have. I call them kindjals, because this is what Russians call them (wrongly), but this way there will be no arguing about them being called a qama, khanchal or ghama.

#1 with the brass handle and modified blade. The blade could have originally been Caucasian, but was modified and the hilt was added most likely in Turkey, less likely in Persia, unless it is a fake one. Hard to tell from the photo.
#2, 3 and 4 definitely kindjals made in the Caucasus, the silver one most likely in Daghestan.
#5 is different. It is what could be called qaddara and most likely than not, made in Isfahan Persia. IMHO the reason it has a Caucasian handle, is because it was originally made by the Isfahan Armenians (who were deported there from Caucasus by Shah Abbas starting from AD 1604) and they kept the design i.e. continued making it the way they knew and just made it longer. (Also the shorter version is described as an Armenian kindjal/knife by Astvatsaturian in her "Weapons of the Caucasus" book, I will post a photo of the shorter Caucasian/Armenian version as soon as I get it.) BTW the name qaddara has an Indo-European root of of the word "cut". I.e. qaddara is the same as cutter-a (This is my own observation. All the other opinions are welcome, especially Farsi speakers'.)
#6 Kindjal made in Georgia (80%)
#7 Kindjal made in Chechnia or Daghestan 50% - 50%
As I said I can tell you if they were made in Caucasus (Including Transcaucasia) or not, but even that would not be 100% correct, as these daggers were very popular and even after the decline of the bladed weapon usage, they were and still are being made all over Caucasus, Middle East, Russia and even India out of all places. I am trying to gain a lot of information about the these kindjals myself and I will start a thread myself as soon as I am 90% certain about all the information that I have.

P.S. I will elaborate on the subject of the kindjals' origins separately, but one thing I can tell you for sure, these did not originate from Scythian akinakes.

Hi Arsendade.

Thank you so much for taking the time out to respond to my post it is much appreciated. Your comments and observations are most informative and valuable to me as I have little knowledge of these weapons or the Caucasus. I had been carrying out some research but seemed to be going round in circles as I found the information I gleaned from the many and various sites that I visited to be very conflicting so your comments were most refreshing. I do not know how the photos became out of sequence with my comments but Kindjal No 4 is shown before No 3 And two of No 6 are shown out of sequence also. I had made some guesses my self but without your obvious knowledge and am quite pleased that some of my guesses agree with some of yours, I guessed the following:-

No 1:- Fake or Tourist piece, No 2:- Chechen due to its long armour piercing point ? No 3:- Didn't know, No 4 :- I thought maybe Dagestan due to its having a similar style blade stamp to No 7 which I also thought may be Dagestan , No 5 :- I thought that this may be Persian or Kazakstan and No 6 :- I was not sure whether it was Georgian or Russian as it has the Don assay stamp.
It would be very nice now if someone in the Forum could translate the script on the blade and scabbard and if someone could shed any light on the blade stamps as I have spent a lot of time trying to find out without success.
Thank you again for your reply.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

I have found out more about Kindjals in these latest replies than I have done in all the time I have spent giving myself a headache on the web.
I particularly wish to thank Arsendaday for your most informative replies and for sharing the photo of the Kindjal with the superb blade and your Quaddara post showing your Quaddara which looks to be better quality than mine. I also wish to apologise to you for miss-spelling your name in my first reply to you. Finally with regard to the collecting disease I am afraid there is no cure.

I would also like to thank Mariusgmioc for his comments which cut through all the confusion of names.

Thank you.

Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Finally with regard to the collecting disease I am afraid there is no cure.

Miguel

Then I am doomed!

PS: Try getting "Arms and Armor of Caucasus," by Kirill A Rivkin. It's the best reference on this topic... and beautifully illustrated as well... while still available!

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Then I am doomed!

PS: Try getting "Arms and Armor of Caucasus," by Kirill A Rivkin. It's the best reference on this topic... and beautifully illustrated as well... while still available!

I am afraid so, terrifying isn't it Thanks for the tip about the book, I have already got it on my list as ariel was singing its praises some weeks ago.
Miguel

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Arsendaday

Also the shorter version is described as an Armenian kindjal/knife by Astvatsaturian in her "Weapons of the Caucasus" book, I will post a photo of the shorter Caucasian/Armenian version as soon as I get it.

Here is the photo of what I consider a shorter version of Qaddara. (Note the fullers and the maker mark). This is a single edge, triple (more if you count the narrow lines) fullered knife with silver rivets and Caucasian type horn handle. The rivets on the handle have been replaced at a later time IMHO and were installed on the wrong side. (Unless the wielder was a leftie and this was a special order, which I highly doubt) The scabbard is missing When I bought this knife it came in a Caucasian Kindjal scabbard. I think it left the Caucasus that way. As you can see it doesn't even fit the scabbard. So again somebody just took the knife and stuck it in the first scabbard they got their hands onto. The scabbard BTW is for a Russian KKV (Kuban Cossack Warriors) Kindjal. I will post photos later.
The only other daggers fullered this way and of this size are Surmene Daggers, but they have very distinctive handles and blades (last photo and also check this link: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=933)

So I consider this the Caucasian ancestor of Persian/Isfahan Qaddara.

P.S. I welcome all feedback on this knife.

[arsendaday]

Here are the photos.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

I have found out more about Kindjals in these latest replies than I have done in all the time I have spent giving myself a headache on the web.
I particularly wish to thank Arsendaday for your most informative replies and for sharing the photo of the Kindjal with the superb blade and your Quaddara post showing your Quaddara which looks to be better quality than mine. I also wish to apologise to you for miss-spelling your name in my first reply to you. Finally with regard to the collecting disease I am afraid there is no cure.

I would also like to thank Mariusgmioc for his comments which cut through all the confusion of names.

Thank you.

Miguel

What I forgot to add was that I am surprised no one has recognised any of the blade stamps or interpreted the inscriptions which I would have thought were fairly common on weapons of this type from the Caucasus.
Kind regards
Miguel

[arsendaday]

Also here is a link to my Qaddara a.k.a. my "first bladed weapon" (other than army of various knives) and the bacteria that infected me with "Sword Collection" disease.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...persian+qaddar