Falklands War Kukri

[sirupate]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Lovely MK5 examples Sirupate.

Mk5 is an incorrect term Chris, the last issued Mark Kukri was the Mk4 (which was not liked and quickly dropped) which was as you know purchased by the then War Department, the very best Simon

[mrcjgscott]

Even though this has absolutely nothing to do with Harry's original question...

Originally Posted by sirupate

Mk5 is an incorrect term Chris,

Why so? It is the fifth design or "mark" of kukri carried by the British (and other) Gurkha armed forces. It seem a perfectly valid term to me, and indeed, every other reasonable kukri collector/enthusiast.

Originally Posted by sirupate

Mk5 is an incorrect term Chris, which was as you know purchased by the then War Department, the very best Simon

Speaking of "incorrect terms" you may wish to look up the history of the War Department, which has not been in existence since 1857...

I think you may be confusing it with the War Office.

All the very best,

Chris

P.S.

I think we have disrupted this thread quite enough. If you have any further questions, or seek further discussion, I will happily converse with you via PM.

[sirupate]

Your quite correct on the War Office, however, on the Mk5, that would be correct if the current Service issue was designated as a Mk5, but it isn't Chris

[Battara]

Back on topic, so this type of kothimora kukri would be given to whom from a Gurkha?

[sirupate]

I don't think it is a presentation Kothimora (pronounced Kotimora) of the Gurkhas Battara, I think it is more likely to be a kukri made for retail than a Kothimora kukri of the Gurkhas

The main reasons that Kothimora kukri that the Gurkhas give out are;
1. For retired Gurkha Officers
2. For someone they like or has earned their respect that has served with them
3. To another unit that has served alongside them

To civilians like myself Gurkhas themselves tend to give their service issue if they like and respect you.

In 2001 in Nepal with the then Royal Nepalese Army I taught one of the Close Quarter Instructors to their Para Commando Shreedhar Bhujel and he presented me with a swagger stick and a personnel kukri

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Battara

Back on topic, so this type of kothimora kukri would be given to whom from a Gurkha?

My apologies Battara.

Whilst Harry's kukri is not military in origin, i.e. a service weapon, it is still quite common to see such commercially available items bought by regiments, and handed out to various "friends" of the regiment.

As in India, in Nepal there is a long tradition of presenting weapons as gifts.

Generally Gurkha's are a canny bunch, and will tailor the quality of the gift to the importance of the recipient. I recently saw images of a ceremony in Nepal where a Gurkha regiment was presenting some of its members with very cheap Lionshead kukri, of the type commonly labelled "Tourist Pieces".

If I can get permission, I shall share those images here.

Perhaps if Simon still has his "Presentation" kukri he would like to share it with us, it is rather hard to see from his image.

Attached is another readily available commercial kukri, given by The Queen's Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment to a friend of mine in the Parachute Regiment, shortly after their formation in 2001.

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

My apologies Battara.

Whilst Harry's kukri is not military in origin, i.e. a service weapon, it is still quite common to see such commercially available items bought by regiments, and handed out to various "friends" of the regiment.

As in India, in Nepal there is a long tradition of presenting weapons as gifts.

Generally Gurkha's are a canny bunch, and will tailor the quality of the gift to the importance of the recipient. I recently saw images of a ceremony in Nepal where a Gurkha regiment was presenting some of its members with very cheap Lionshead kukri, of the type commonly labelled "Tourist Pieces".

If I can get permission, I shall share those images here.

Perhaps if Simon still has his "Presentation" kukri he would like to share it with us, it is rather hard to see from his image.

Attached is another readily available commercial kukri, given by The Queen's Own Gurkha Logistic Regiment to a friend of mine in the Parachute Regiment, shortly after their formation in 2001.

Kind regards,

Chris

An interesting picture there Chris, as it was originally made for my company, and wasn't in production until 2004, note the Tiger (Japanese Tora), by the late Nawaraj, other Khukuri houses have copied it to various degrees since, and it is one of the kukri I have sent to Brunei
PS a Lion Head Kothimora

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

An interesting picture there Chris, as it was originally made for my company, and wasn't in production until 2004, note the Tiger (Japanese Tora), by the late Nawaraj, other Khukuri houses have copied it to various degrees since, and it is one of the kukri I have sent to Brunei
PS a Lion Head Kothimora

Attached is an image of the presentation plaque fixed to the stand of the Tiger kukri I illustrated. As well as being a kind gift given between brothers in arms, it also appears to be magical and time travelling, being gifted a full two years before you say you had it made?

Which rather puts your claim of designing this “Tiger” motif in doubt?

Especially considering the example you share also shows a Tiger. Tigers and indeed Lions are a very common theme on many presentation weapons, especially kukris.

You may also be interested in this Tiger example, presented in 1965…quite some time before you invented it!!

http://www.abridgeover.net/kukri.htm

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

1. The picture of Tulbahadur Pun in 1953 shows him holding his service number one,
2. Chan Bahadur Gurung with his service kukri
3. 63rd Gurkha Brigade
4. Lalbahadur Gurung etc.

As to the photographs you allude to, I have taken the liberty of attaching them here:

The picture of Lieutenant Tul Bahadur Pun VC (To afford a brave man his full title)

Clearly not a MKV. Obviously one of those “interim” issue kukri you mention, or perhaps a private purchase piece? Victoria Cross winners are usually cut quite a lot of leeway, especially in publicity photographs. But certainly not a MKV.

Chan Bahadur Gurung isn’t holding a MKV either, and that image dates from 1962. (Image Credit Getty Images)

Lalbahadur Gurung appears to be holding a MKIII. (Image Credit: Taken from "The Gurkha" by James and Small, Published 1966)

And as for this:

Originally Posted by sirupate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXEVYy4aNI

I don’t think this esteemed forum is really the place to advertise your ailing kukri business, do you Simon? Most of these advertising/self promotional video’s are so filled with errors they really are laughable, not to mention misleading and unhelpful.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Your quite correct on the War Office, however, on the Mk5, that would be correct if the current Service issue was designated as a Mk5, but it isn't Chris

I have always disliked childish games. My least favourite as a child was one called "Simon Say's". I still don't care for it, even to this day...

The "Mark 5" has been in service since circa 1965, to the present day. It was introduced after the failure of the Mark 4. Therefore, it is the Mark 5

Unless you can prove that the Mark 5 has never been designated as "Mark 5" at any time during its long service life, then I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree.

[sirupate]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

I have always disliked childish games. My least favourite as a child was one called "Simon Say's". I still don't care for it, even to this day...

The "Mark 5" has been in service since circa 1965, to the present day. It was introduced after the failure of the Mark 4. Therefore, it is the Mark 5

Unless you can prove that the Mark 5 has never been designated as "Mark 5" at any time during its long service life, then I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree.

Well having supplied kukri to the Gurkhas in Brunei I can tell you that no reference was made to the term 'Mk5', but they did talk about the Mk3.
Potentially the earliest pictures I have seen of what the GM's in Pokhara and Winchester as well as the Gurkhas themselves call the Service number one (or ceremonial) is 1953.
There were also many interim kukri issued until the various regiments for whatever reason (probably financial) decided to settle on the service number one, examples of pictures of interim issued kukri are;
1. The picture of Tulbahadur Pun in 1953 shows him holding his service number one,
2. Chan Bahadur Gurung with his service kukri
3. 63rd Gurkha Brigade
4. Lalbahadur Gurung etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjXEVYy4aNI
Picture GM in Pokhara

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Well having supplied kukri to the Gurkhas in Brunei I can tell you that no reference was made to the term 'Mk5'

That is not how I understand it Simon, I believe you sent them some samples, and that was as far as it went. Quite a difference I think, and very misleading to claim you hold any kind of supply contract with them.

Originally Posted by sirupate

Potentially the earliest pictures I have seen of what the GM's in Pokhara and Winchester as well as the Gurkhas themselves call the Service number one (or ceremonial) is 1953.

Plenty of mistakes in both museums Simon. Note this image taken recently at Pokhara, clearly showing a WWA replica listed as original.

You seem to illustrate the “parade” version of the MKV. In uniform terms, a service No1 refers to a soldiers parade uniform. I believe this is where your confusion stems from.

Originally Posted by sirupate

There were also many interim kukri issued until the various regiments for whatever reason (probably financial) decided to settle on the service number one

Post WW2 most Gurkha units would have used up the vast stocks of MKII and MKIII left over from the war. Once these were gone, and the MK IV proved unsuccessful, it seems various regiments made their own arrangements until the MKV was decided upon. This took several years, and did not emerge until the mid 1960's.

It has now been in production for over 50 years with some variation, but basically unchanged. Its constant characteristics are a horn handle, brass furniture, and a 10 to 11 inch blade. Not all are marked and dated as you state, but most carry the words “Ordep” or “Ordep Nepal” and a date.


*Picture credit V.K.Kunwor*

[sirupate]

Answers in Brackets and bold;

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

That is not how I understand it Simon, I believe you sent them some samples, and that was as far as it went. Quite a difference I think, and very misleading to claim you hold any kind of supply contract with them.
(Yes I did send samples, but I also supplied them with some kukri for private purchase buys. In the picture of WO1 Dai Charles and myself in Stonehouse Barracks teaching him and other RM btw, the kukri he is using is one of mine that he purchased off the Gurkha Shop in Brunei, ironic as we only live a couple of miles apart!)

Plenty of mistakes in both museums Simon. Note this image taken recently at Pokhara, clearly showing a WWA replica listed as original.
(I believe that is Spiral's picture from 2005, the museum has long since moved, and the kukri you refer to is not in the new Pokhara museum btw)

You seem to illustrate the “parade” version of the MKV. In uniform terms, a service No1 refers to a soldiers parade uniform. I believe this is where your confusion stems from.
(Outstanding lack of knowledge, if the current kukri were Mk5, it would be called Mk5 Ceremonial or Mk5 Service number one, but it isn't. On all the orders forms and correspondence I have seen for kukri for the Brigade of Gurkhas, there is no mention of Mk5 kukri, it is wholly incorrect to call them a Mk5)

Post WW2 most Gurkha units would have used up the vast stocks of MKII and MKIII left over from the war. Once these were gone, and the MK IV proved unsuccessful, it seems various regiments made their own arrangements until the MKV was decided upon. This took several years, and did not emerge until the mid 1960's.
(Oh really? considering that in WW2 the Gurkhas rarely used the Mk2 and Mk3 that is a fanciful statement of yours, and as the kukri were produced by the 'Indian Army', the kukri produced for the Indian Army after the partition would have remained with the Indian army, especially as the Gurkhas hardly ever used them!)

It has now been in production for over 50 years with some variation, but basically unchanged. Its constant characteristics are a horn handle, brass furniture, and a 10 to 11 inch blade. Not all are marked and dated as you state, but most carry the words “Ordep” or “Ordep Nepal” and a date.
(once again you make up words I am supposed to have said, amazing! at some point in the late 1980's the marking on the issue kukri stopped in the manner I spoke about when the Dharan base shut, for economic reasons, which is (for a while) where they made the kukri for the various Gurkha Regiments , and once again no Gurkha has referred to them as a Mk5!)


*Picture credit V.K.Kunwor*