Dragons, Naga and Bakunawa...

Titus Pullo · 21st January 2006, 08:31 PM

Probably, Thai arts are influence by the Balinese, also. They were contact between cultures in Southeast Asia, exchanging ideas and goods back in the ancient time. And, also, Siam kingdom once ruled part of the Indonesian Island when it was expanding its influence.

Emanuel · 22nd January 2006, 01:36 AM

Hello to all,

Looking at the beautiful hilts of the Sanduko swords, I can't help being reminded of the moro pira with their elongated hilts. Could the pira hilt -although functional in protecting the arm- be a stylized/simplified version of these Sanduko hilts and if so could they represent the same deity/dragon?

The pictures below are both from Spunjer's old posts, I apologize for not asking permission first and I hope he won't mind.

Regards,
Manolo

Titus Pullo · 22nd January 2006, 03:37 AM

I would imagine the one with the hilt made of wood would absorb the shock better on impact, and also cut down on the weight; thus, it makes it easier to use.

BSMStar · 22nd January 2006, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello to all,

Looking at the beautiful hilts of the Sanduko swords, I can't help being reminded of the moro pira with their elongated hilts. Could the pira hilt -although functional in protecting the arm- be a stylized/simplified version of these Sanduko hilts and if so could they represent the same deity/dragon?

Regards,
Manolo

I look with sadness at the nose on my Sanduko, it use to look like the one in the above picture, but an inch or more has been broken off (before I got it).

I think being a pira may have to do more with the blade shape than just the hilt. With the design differences (and correct me if I am wrong) it would seem that the two sword blade and hilt shapes serve different purposes as weapons.

Not all Bakunawas have a long nose (some are very short - see Spunjer's avatar). It would mean that the Sanduko would alone have been the influence for the pira (a bit of a hard sale).... The Sanduko "horn" really serves no protective purpose (it seems to easily break). Mine was broken; I doubt it happened in combat (more like in rough handling).

It would be nice to know why the differences for the Bakunawas.

Spunjer · 22nd January 2006, 01:09 PM

Quote:

The pictures below are both from Spunjer's old posts, I apologize for not asking permission first and I hope he won't mind.

nah, don't worry about it manolo, lol. post on, bro. i don't get too sensitive on petty stuff like that. if i didn't wanna share it, then i don't have any business posting it on the 'net.

BSMStar,
here's another tidbit:
i had a custom binangon made the last time i was in P.I. for the handle design, i requested the knob style. panday's reaction was, "oh, the chicken gizzard!" i asked, well isn't that suppose to be a stylized 'naga' head? he laughed and told me, "son, where did you ever got that stupid idea from?"

but then again, this is just one panday's opinion...

BSMStar · 25th January 2006, 01:23 AM

Well Spunjer, I guess one man's naga is another man's chicken gizzard.

BSMStar · 30th January 2006, 02:16 AM

Here is a link to some great sword pics that I have mentioned before, scroll down.... Love those dragons!!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../001969-2.html

Spunjer · 31st January 2006, 11:24 PM

yup,

concur with ya. nice sundangs in that thread...

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2006, 11:35 AM

This used to be in my paternal grandparents house. I always admired it as a little boy. It is really just an old tourist thing but quite striking.

A South American Godzilla. This beats working.

fearn · 11th May 2006, 03:58 PM

Hi BSMStar,

There are some studies out there about how fossils have been (allegedly) incorporated into ancient art, including some pictures on Greek vases, and legends of the bones of giants (Europe, N America, etc).

That said....how old do you think some of these pots are? There have been pics of dinosaurs around for almost a century now, and I'd be amazed if some forgers....excuse me, indigenous potters working for the faux-archeology/tourist trade...haven't been incorporating some of the images (say, from Charles Knight, or even godzilla) into the "ancient" pots that they sell here and there. Without a good provenance, it's probably better to be skeptical.

As for dragons being misidentified dinosaurs, I suspect they were, in some cases. Thing is, the term "dragon" encompasses a huge range of mythological critters that contain some sort of reptilian element. It can be informative to look at the real diversity in "dragons" especially in Medieval art. Aside from having a reptilian element, it's hard to say exactly what a dragon is: worm, snake, lizard, crocodile? Winged or wingless? Single or multiply-headed? Satan? a treasure guard? in the water, under the earth, flying, etc... you get the idea. It's more of a category than a species, I think.

F

BSMStar · 11th May 2006, 09:03 PM

Hi Fearn,

Let me try to explain where I am coming from, my comments are not directed toward any one person (just the rambling of an old man).

I do not mean to imply there are not forgeries, or “relics” that were recently made to deceive. Any posted examples that I made were for the sake of stimulating conversation on the idea that … dragon lore is universal, it is found everywhere on the planet.

The modern explanations of dragon origins seem to come from the bias that dragon type animals can not exist, therefore let’s come up with a very ordinary explanation with something we do know about today. We can use the explanation that these people are not too bright, superstitious, misidentify everyday things, you know… place them in the category of those crazy people that see flying saucers and Bigfoot. On close examination, some of these crazy, not too bright, superstitious, misidentifying people happen to be Airline/Air Force Pilots and Biologist with PhDs (in other words, trained experts). Maybe, just maybe we should approach this with a scientific and open mind rather than a precluding bias. New species are commonly discovered and species thought to be extinct for millions of years have been found as well (the Coelacanth for example, thought to be extinct for the last 80 million years - “rediscovered” alive and well in 1938).

Back to the subject of dragons, unless we are willing to accept the idea that all people in all cultures that came before us are not too bright, just superstitious, and are misidentify everyday things… maybe… just maybe, it is worth asking the question how did this universal dragon lore come into being. Keep in mind, we are including cultures like the ancient Egyptians who build the structures on the Giza plateau, a feat with all of our knowledge and wisdom, can not duplicate today. These forgotten people were smart, very smart and their survival depended on their ability to identify what was in the world around them. Just to assume that they were not too bright, just superstitious, or they were misidentifying everyday things is to show either our ignorance or our arrogance. If this was a localized phenomenon, dragon myths would be easier to dismiss… a world wide phenomenon is a bit more difficult to ignore. Something happened that started it all. I hope no one misunderstands and thinks that I am saying the world is crawling with dragons and that they exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe that dragons are worthy of further study, if for no other reason than we all seem to have dragons as a common link… sometime in our ancestral past, real or imagined… and they are still very powerful symbols today.

Personally, I would like to learn as much as I can about dragon myths. I believe they should be shared and not lost to time (and forgotten).

Now that you are hypnotized by this rambling... send all those dragon swords to me.

22nd January 2006, 01:36 AM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello to all, Looking at the beautiful hilts of the Sanduko swords, I can't help being reminded of the moro pira with their elongated hilts. Could the pira hilt -although functional in protecting the arm- be a stylized/simplified version of these Sanduko hilts and if so could they represent the same deity/dragon? The pictures below are both from Spunjer's old posts, I apologize for not asking permission first and I hope he won't mind. Regards, Manolo Attached Images

30th January 2006, 02:16 AM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Great Link... Here is a link to some great sword pics that I have mentioned before, scroll down.... Love those dragons!!! http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../001969-2.html

11th May 2006, 11:35 AM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	This used to be in my paternal grandparents house. I always admired it as a little boy. It is really just an old tourist thing but quite striking. A South American Godzilla. This beats working. Attached Images

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21st January 2006, 08:31 PM	#1
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Probably, Thai arts are influence by the Balinese, also. They were contact between cultures in Southeast Asia, exchanging ideas and goods back in the ancient time. And, also, Siam kingdom once ruled part of the Indonesian Island when it was expanding its influence.

22nd January 2006, 03:37 AM	#3
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	I would imagine the one with the hilt made of wood would absorb the shock better on impact, and also cut down on the weight; thus, it makes it easier to use.

25th January 2006, 01:23 AM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Well Spunjer, I guess one man's naga is another man's chicken gizzard.

31st January 2006, 11:24 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yup, concur with ya. nice sundangs in that thread...

11th May 2006, 03:58 PM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi BSMStar, There are some studies out there about how fossils have been (allegedly) incorporated into ancient art, including some pictures on Greek vases, and legends of the bones of giants (Europe, N America, etc). That said....how old do you think some of these pots are? There have been pics of dinosaurs around for almost a century now, and I'd be amazed if some forgers....excuse me, indigenous potters working for the faux-archeology/tourist trade...haven't been incorporating some of the images (say, from Charles Knight, or even godzilla) into the "ancient" pots that they sell here and there. Without a good provenance, it's probably better to be skeptical. As for dragons being misidentified dinosaurs, I suspect they were, in some cases. Thing is, the term "dragon" encompasses a huge range of mythological critters that contain some sort of reptilian element. It can be informative to look at the real diversity in "dragons" especially in Medieval art. Aside from having a reptilian element, it's hard to say exactly what a dragon is: worm, snake, lizard, crocodile? Winged or wingless? Single or multiply-headed? Satan? a treasure guard? in the water, under the earth, flying, etc... you get the idea. It's more of a category than a species, I think. F

11th May 2006, 09:03 PM	#11
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hi Fearn, Let me try to explain where I am coming from, my comments are not directed toward any one person (just the rambling of an old man). I do not mean to imply there are not forgeries, or “relics” that were recently made to deceive. Any posted examples that I made were for the sake of stimulating conversation on the idea that … dragon lore is universal, it is found everywhere on the planet. The modern explanations of dragon origins seem to come from the bias that dragon type animals can not exist, therefore let’s come up with a very ordinary explanation with something we do know about today. We can use the explanation that these people are not too bright, superstitious, misidentify everyday things, you know… place them in the category of those crazy people that see flying saucers and Bigfoot. On close examination, some of these crazy, not too bright, superstitious, misidentifying people happen to be Airline/Air Force Pilots and Biologist with PhDs (in other words, trained experts). Maybe, just maybe we should approach this with a scientific and open mind rather than a precluding bias. New species are commonly discovered and species thought to be extinct for millions of years have been found as well (the Coelacanth for example, thought to be extinct for the last 80 million years - “rediscovered” alive and well in 1938). Back to the subject of dragons, unless we are willing to accept the idea that all people in all cultures that came before us are not too bright, just superstitious, and are misidentify everyday things… maybe… just maybe, it is worth asking the question how did this universal dragon lore come into being. Keep in mind, we are including cultures like the ancient Egyptians who build the structures on the Giza plateau, a feat with all of our knowledge and wisdom, can not duplicate today. These forgotten people were smart, very smart and their survival depended on their ability to identify what was in the world around them. Just to assume that they were not too bright, just superstitious, or they were misidentifying everyday things is to show either our ignorance or our arrogance. If this was a localized phenomenon, dragon myths would be easier to dismiss… a world wide phenomenon is a bit more difficult to ignore. Something happened that started it all. I hope no one misunderstands and thinks that I am saying the world is crawling with dragons and that they exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe that dragons are worthy of further study, if for no other reason than we all seem to have dragons as a common link… sometime in our ancestral past, real or imagined… and they are still very powerful symbols today. Personally, I would like to learn as much as I can about dragon myths. I believe they should be shared and not lost to time (and forgotten). Now that you are hypnotized by this rambling... send all those dragon swords to me.