When in India "died" wootz?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

I agree. This discussion reached an impasse. The question in the form it was asked is unanswerable, because everyone agrees that no precise date or even year of wootz disappearance is ever going to be established. And that's the best we can come up with. Flogging a dead horse is never productive.

I am done. Whoever wants to continue digging further is more than welcome and good luck to him. If actual examples are posted , they may be open to factual critique, but the general discussion is over. At least for me.

Thank you, ariel. Your opinion about the "dead horses" clear

I understand that you do not have the facts of the historical sources (mid-late 19th century) that in the middle of the 19th century wootz - disappeared.

[ariel]

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

Why this verbal swordplay?

I have no doubt that you have read a lot of old sources in English. If you have evidence of your words of wootz - I'll be glad to hear.

[Ian]

Mahratt and Ariel:

You have a PM from me.

Ian.

[ariel]

Mahratt,
Please, I am trying to end this discussion.
You are free to continue and discuss it with whomever you choose, but I said everything I wanted.
Do me a favor and do not involve me in this discussion anymore. I will not respond.
Thanks.

[mahratt]

I do not understand, why write in the subject line, if there are no facts. And nothing to say, in addition to known cliches ....

[Emanuel]

Sorry to butt in, I have not read the accounts and first-person sources mentioned here, but I second the question expressed by Mahratt in his first post:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Termination production of wootz steel means the cessation of the production of wootz steel blades?

So do the old accounts refer to the production of the wootz/bulat metal ingots or to the bladesmithing of the sword. Same for museums, does the stated/published provenance refer to the date of accession of the sword to the museum's collection, or the date of the sword's production in the cartouche/stamp?

Consider that by mid 19th century, the British Raj was rolling out railway throughout India. Producing rail stock required modern European industrial methods, not the local artisanal ones. Once a modern steel making industrial process was setup for the rail, it made sense to continue its application to everything else. Therefore the artisanal bloomery steel and phulad/bulat/wootz/crucible steel was rendered fully obsolete. By early 1900s Tata Iron and Steel Company was already setup and producing modern steels for the British.

Possibly wootz ingot production continued sporadically into the late-19th century and beyond where patronage by some Raja families continued and where the craft was able to live on.

I see no reason why wootz sword production would not have continued sporadically until later, whenever wootz ingots were available. There must have been some demand from Raja families, elites, and Sikhs in Rajasthan and elsewhere in spite of the influx of European blades and modern steeles on the markets.

Emanuel

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Sorry to butt in, I have not read the accounts and first-person sources mentioned here, but I second the question expressed by Mahratt in his first post:

So do the old accounts refer to the production of the wootz/bulat metal ingots or to the bladesmithing of the sword. Same for museums, does the stated/published provenance refer to the date of accession of the sword to the museum's collection, or the date of the sword's production in the cartouche/stamp?

Consider that by mid 19th century, the British Raj was rolling out railway throughout India. Producing rail stock required modern European industrial methods, not the local artisanal ones. Once a modern steel making industrial process was setup for the rail, it made sense to continue its application to everything else. Therefore the artisanal bloomery steel and phulad/bulat/wootz/crucible steel was rendered fully obsolete. By early 1900s Tata Iron and Steel Company was already setup and producing modern steels for the British.

Possibly wootz ingot production continued sporadically into the late-19th century and beyond where patronage by some Raja families continued and where the craft was able to live on.

I see no reason why wootz sword production would not have continued sporadically until later, whenever wootz ingots were available. There must have been some demand from Raja families, elites, and Sikhs in Rajasthan and elsewhere in spite of the influx of European blades and modern steeles on the markets.

Emanuel

Hello, Emanuel!
You asked good questions.

1) In 1840, the captain of the Russian army Masalsky in Persia watched wootz steel smelting process. And publishes an article about it in 1842 in "Mining Journal".
2) In 1850-ies Russian travelers noted that in Persia in Tehran do many wootz blades for sale.
3) there Bukhara saber in Russian museum (wootz blade), on which is written, that the master did it in 1860.
4) In the Russian museums have some Bukharian swords and sabers from wootz steel, which were donated from the Emir of Bukhara in 1880-1890 years.

On the situation in India, I totally agree with you. And you're right that the local production of wootz steel in India would continue (small amounts) until the end of the 19th century (Maybe).