Long yatagan

[estcrh]

Sancar, you make these types of statements and then you do not supply ANY references to back up anything you say. You dispute photos, drawings and first hand accounts, why is this, who can take anything you say seriously when you make statements and then just disappear without ever making an attempt to back up what you say???

In my opinion you are wrong on ALL accounts here, zeybeck were not simply bandits and irregular rural militia, there is a lot of evidence that they actively worked with the Ottoman goverment and the later Turkish government on many military fronts right up to the 1920s. Zeybeck were a recognised group and you did not just become a zeybek by murdering someome etc. They did not dress in the same way as everyone, that is pointed out by multiple first hand descriptions from many sources and they were not just hiding away afraid to be seen as many first hand accounts show. I do not know were you are getting your information from but it does not mesh with what people who lived in that period of time say.

As for the yatagan grips, many other ethnic groups such as Samurai, Albanians and Circassians etc were known for wearing specific types of clothing and carrying certain types of weapons, they did this on purpose, it was a UNIFORM that allowed people to recognise them as a specific group. Not all of members of these groups dressed exactly the same but enough did so that there clothing and weapons became a trademark. The zeybek were no different, they for the most part wore distinctive clothing and weapons so they could be identified.

The photos and drawings and first hand discriptions over and over show a distinct way of dress, just like Samurai, Albanians Circassians etc and this can simply be ignored just because you say so, please come up with some proof or stop posting unsubstantiated beliefs as though they were known facts. While some photos are certainly not authentic there are enough known authentic photos and descriptions to show that Zeybek did dress in the way shown photos and drawings, at what point in time they started doing this may be questioned.

You have not mentioned the fact that first hand accounts show that in some military fronts thousands of Zeybek are said to have fought, this is not just a gang of men who joined the military to keep out of trouble. Zeybeck were part of a planned force of men who were openly allowed to murder, pillage, rape and assist the regular Ottoman / Turkish military on many occasions, why are you ignoring this???

Originally Posted by Sancar

I hope you allow me put some historical context to the discussion: zeybeks were mostly active at the end of 19th century-early 20th century in Western Anatolia as irregular rural militia at best, but in reality mostly as cutthroat bandits. They can be likened to "cowboys" in American wild west. So as you can see, they mostly lived in a time period where importance of a bladed weapon faded quite fastly.

In that era, zeybek or town folk gentry, most people carried those so-called "zeybek yatağan"s as part of their costume,and as a sign of prestige(like court swords-smallswords) so the blades got longer and longer, well in to the 20th century.

Originally Posted by Sancar

Ariel, it is not a strict uniform, just the local costume. And not specific to zeybeks either. This is mostly similar to most town folk wore in Ottoman Anatolia and Balkans in 19th century.

And that so-called "Zeybek" yatagan with T shaped ears. That is not specific to zeybeks either. It is just easier to make than a real ear shaped handle. And in late 19th century-early 20th century small town blacksmiths were not expert swordsmiths like in earlier times, so most made those ears T shaped because it was easier to make. Some yatagans that were made earlier also got those T shaped pommels when their original fancy handles got fallen apart and their owners or the local knifesmith made these simple handles for them.

Zeybek yatagan is just a name given by contemporary antique dealers, just to make it easier to classify and make it sound more important.

Originally Posted by Sancar

keep in mind, those zeybeks were outlaws who could not easily walk to a big city photo studio with all their weapons for their photos to be taken. Not to mention, since the usual way to become a zeybek was either running from the law for murdering someone in their "civilian" life, or deserting from the army(both crimes punishable by hanging) those people wouldn't prefer to let their faces to be known by authorities. Actually most of them lived in mountains and rarely even go down to rural villages because they would be risking their lives, (being ambushed by soldiers or rival gangs, or even villagers themselves) every time they leave those mountains.

Originally Posted by Sancar

So most people in those Zeybek photos are likely either tourists or just amateur models, instead of the real deal.

[Sancar]

estrch, there are many mixtures of truth and misinformation, and tons of orientalist bias in those quotes you post (even that "Zeibek, the name of a Turkish tribe in the region of Smyrna" quote make me want to choke myself to death, to be honest). I can try to explain and correct them one by one.There is a great deal of historical and socio-cultural context to this subject that can help to correct some misconceptions, and I can try to write for hours to try to give a brief summary of it, but I won't.

Because it feels really really really frustrating to try to explain something that is such a common knowledge, to a foreigner. And whatever I'll do, I feel it will turn personal and unpleasent. Because I feel like I'm trying to prove the sky is blue or water is wet, and even though you have every right to ask for sources, I feel no answer will satisfy you and even though if I can dig up some sources that are half-correct and non-biased, I can't just explain the whole socio-cultural and historical context to you without writing a whole book about it. There is just soo much confusion, misconception and bias already I wouldn't even know where to start even if I wanted to.

And that is exactly why I always have a tendency to refrain from commenting to threads that involve my own culture. It feels like I'm giving directions to my home and you're asking for proof.

So, why don't you feel free to disbelieve the information that I wrote and we just agree to disagree? Let's just say I'm just b.s.ing from the top of my head and let's not further this discussion in any way. If you agree let's move on and don't even feel the need to answer this post.

[ariel]

Estcrh,
Having read the references you cited, I can't help but notice that they seem to support every point mentioned by Sancar and are contradicting your conclusions.
I think Sancar is right: let's drop it and keep our own interpretations of facts and events.

[Ian]

Guys:

If this continues, the personal comments and attacks here are going to get this thread closed and significant restrictions handed out to the offenders. I have edited the more egregious exchanges. Knock it off or face the consequences!

Ian.