Identification help?

cornelistromp · 11th February 2016, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi all,

As for being an Original or not, when zooming in on these pictures detail gets lost just before the point they should become visible.
What is visible in the pictures is that this is not a left hand sword.
If you look at the position of the thumb ring and the position of the branch protecting the thumb it becomes clear that its a right hand sword.
Im not so sure the sword is too short either, the type as a one handed sword and keeping mind that this guard is not that heavy I would say between 100 CM and 110 is normal ( give or take a few CM )

kind regards

Ulfberth

Hi Ulfberth,
sorry to have to say that this sword can not be hold (properly) in your right hand, then the bracket is in the way.
it is 100% a left hander.

please compare and see post #7 this is the same innerguard for a right handed sword.

maybe a picture can be posted with the sword in the left and right hand, thumb over the ring, index finger around the ricasso, then it will be very obvious.

The length can be anything, the few of this type that I have measured were between 90-100cm, Iam curious what the length of this one measures.

best,
jasper

ulfberth · 11th February 2016, 01:52 PM

Well that's good news Jasper, it means at least one of us is going to learn something.
The more knowledge that can be shared the better

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Ulfberth,
sorry to have to say that this sword can not be hold (properly) in your right hand, then the bracket is in the way.
it is 100% a left hander.

please compare and see post #7 this is the same innerguard for a right handed sword.

maybe a picture can be posted with the sword in the left and right hand, thumb over the ring, index finger around the ricasso, then it will be very obvious.

The length can be anything, the few of this type that I have measured were between 90-100cm, Iam curious what the length of this one measures.

best,
jasper

kind regards Ulfberth

iskender · 11th February 2016, 10:44 PM

gentlemen, there is a tread from 12. november 2008 from michael trömner showing " A fine South German One and a Half Sword ca 1525 " I`m correct to assume the guard is a mirror variant of the sword shown above ? When yes do we have a left and right version? As for the theorie this could be thougt as a " Linkhanddolch" i suppose rather not ,i dont see noble fights in my visions of the 80Year-War ending up as the 30 Year-War. on most of the paintings and "kupferstiche" out of that time ,you can see horrible scenes of people killing,torturing and massacre each other with pistols ,muskets, axes, halberts,swords,polarms, cannons etc. the rest suspended on trees ,beheaded and burnt on the pyre! it also would be interesting when somebody nows about the stamp of the smith and his succsessors,i have seen a similar on a german sword of justice made in solingen. A nice Weekend to you all !!! Iskender

cornelistromp · 12th February 2016, 07:26 AM

hi Iskender,

yes correct, for rapiers there are left and right hand versions, this is indicated by the known inner and outer guard types which are mirrored so that the rapier can be used for the left hand.

Just as today there are left and right handed people, the above sword is a sword for a left handed guy, this has nothing to do with a left handed dagger. besides the length is too large for that.

best,
Jasper

iskender · 12th February 2016, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

hi Iskender,

yes correct, for rapiers there are left and right hand versions, this is indicated by the known inner and outer guard types which are mirrored so that the rapier can be used for the left hand.

Just as today there are left and right handed people, the above sword is a sword for a left handed guy, this has nothing to do with a left handed dagger. besides the length is too large for that.

best,
Jasper

Thanks for the information! iskender

corrado26 · 13th February 2016, 03:42 PM

I found at a German dealer the sword shown by the fotos attached. It is described as German about 1560 and shows very similar details to the piece in question. But look at its hilt, it differs very much! So I am still convinced that the sword in question is a fake!
corrado26

cornelistromp · 13th February 2016, 06:43 PM

Hi Corrado,

Iam sorry but what you're saying in above post makes absolutely no sense.

the innerguard you posted is another inner guard type; Norman type 17.
Further, an inner guard type is not limited to a specific type of hilt, but may occur at different type of hilts over a longer time span.

For example, see the attachement a two-handed sword from 1540 with the same type of inner guard, type 21, as the one under discussion, but for the right hand. so this innerguard was already in use 100years earlier as the sword of post 1.
and this type of sword hilt type 43 (1550-1630) in a paining The Company of Captain Rosecrans by Cornelis Ketel, 1588. the innerguard is probably of type 18 or 20.

it's fine that you think the sword is a fake, but you need to come up with more convincing substantiation!

best,
jasper

CSinTX · 13th February 2016, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

I found at a German dealer the sword shown by the fotos attached.

Is this a Fricker sword? Lots to be suspect of there. In my opinion they are both modern builds.

Cathey · 13th February 2016, 09:06 PM

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread with interest and also support the view that the sword is original.

I think that given the quality and quantity of questionable rapiers on the market as collectors we may be becoming jaded. What I mean is that we expect every rapier we see to be a fake, I know I have been guilty of this on many occasions.

Both Rex and I have probably walked away from some good swords over the years just because we went in assuming something will be wrong with it and then convinced ourselves that something was.

Nice sword and I also support the left handed theory.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 13th February 2016, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread with interest and also support the view that the sword is original.

I think that given the quality and quantity of questionable rapiers on the market as collectors we may be becoming jaded. What I mean is that we expect every rapier we see to be a fake, I know I have been guilty of this on many occasions.

Both Rex and I have probably walked away from some good swords over the years just because we went in assuming something will be wrong with it and then convinced ourselves that something was.

Nice sword and I also support the left handed theory.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

This is exactly why we need detailed pictures, I do have concerns about this sword but the pictures are just not clear enough to come to a conclusion, neither the one ore the other.
However it has been shown and explained before on this very forum and in great detail and in all the relevant context, but sometimes people just believe what they want to believe.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

11th February 2016, 10:44 PM	#3
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	left or right ? gentlemen, there is a tread from 12. november 2008 from michael trömner showing " A fine South German One and a Half Sword ca 1525 " I`m correct to assume the guard is a mirror variant of the sword shown above ? When yes do we have a left and right version? As for the theorie this could be thougt as a " Linkhanddolch" i suppose rather not ,i dont see noble fights in my visions of the 80Year-War ending up as the 30 Year-War. on most of the paintings and "kupferstiche" out of that time ,you can see horrible scenes of people killing,torturing and massacre each other with pistols ,muskets, axes, halberts,swords,polarms, cannons etc. the rest suspended on trees ,beheaded and burnt on the pyre! it also would be interesting when somebody nows about the stamp of the smith and his succsessors,i have seen a similar on a german sword of justice made in solingen. A nice Weekend to you all !!! Iskender

13th February 2016, 03:42 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,240	I found at a German dealer the sword shown by the fotos attached. It is described as German about 1560 and shows very similar details to the piece in question. But look at its hilt, it differs very much! So I am still convinced that the sword in question is a fake! corrado26 Attached Images

13th February 2016, 09:06 PM	#9
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Do we judge too quickly Hi Guys I have been watching this thread with interest and also support the view that the sword is original. I think that given the quality and quantity of questionable rapiers on the market as collectors we may be becoming jaded. What I mean is that we expect every rapier we see to be a fake, I know I have been guilty of this on many occasions. Both Rex and I have probably walked away from some good swords over the years just because we went in assuming something will be wrong with it and then convinced ourselves that something was. Nice sword and I also support the left handed theory. Cheers Cathey and Rex

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12th February 2016, 07:26 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	hi Iskender, yes correct, for rapiers there are left and right hand versions, this is indicated by the known inner and outer guard types which are mirrored so that the rapier can be used for the left hand. Just as today there are left and right handed people, the above sword is a sword for a left handed guy, this has nothing to do with a left handed dagger. besides the length is too large for that. best, Jasper

13th February 2016, 06:43 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	Hi Corrado, Iam sorry but what you're saying in above post makes absolutely no sense. the innerguard you posted is another inner guard type; Norman type 17. Further, an inner guard type is not limited to a specific type of hilt, but may occur at different type of hilts over a longer time span. For example, see the attachement a two-handed sword from 1540 with the same type of inner guard, type 21, as the one under discussion, but for the right hand. so this innerguard was already in use 100years earlier as the sword of post 1. and this type of sword hilt type 43 (1550-1630) in a paining The Company of Captain Rosecrans by Cornelis Ketel, 1588. the innerguard is probably of type 18 or 20. it's fine that you think the sword is a fake, but you need to come up with more convincing substantiation! best, jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 13th February 2016 at 07:18 PM.