Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

carlitobrigante · 10th February 2016, 08:47 PM

oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen.

What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside?

Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

mahratt · 10th February 2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen.

What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside?

Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

Many thanks. I am glad that you like!
I also really like the first and second shashkas

These shashkas were presented to the Tsar of Russia. These shashkas presented Khan of Kokand.

Now they are kept in the Hermitage in Russia

Jim McDougall · 10th February 2016, 10:30 PM

Indeed it is great to see this discourse return to the now apparent diversion to this fascinating study of Bukharen and Afghan swords, which in itself is probably one of the most esoteric areas of the edged weapons on Central Asia.
It is almost unfortunate that this particular discussion has begun under the title of the original post which pertains to the distinguished Russian artist Vasily Vereshchagin, as these swords certainly deserve their own titled thread to bring in broader interest in their study.

Meanwhile, I am very grateful for all of the fantastic pictures of these swords and the most interesting attention to their features and details.
I would have to agree however, that this curious debate over the number of rivets or their size is to me fully specious. While there are seemingly some preponderances such as five rivets placed on the Bukharen sabres as appeared in Mr. Flindt's venerable article, he did note potential variances.

As far as I can imagine, the development and production of these types of saber (Bukharen) and the cleft pommel shashka like versions attributed to Afghanistan and Uzbekistan are so predisposed to cross diffusion that most finite attribution is unlikely, if not nearly impossible.

As I have mentioned many times, as Mr. Flindt once said to me, weapons have NO geographic boundaries.
This was noted in what became a rather inconclusive struggle to classify one of these 'shashkas' as either Uzbek or Afghan about 18 years ago.
While it I was once told that the Bukharen sabre had of course nothing to do with the shashka, it remains seemingly likely that the profound Russian presence in these regions in the times of the "Great Game" (c. 1813-1907) certainly may have influenced these Uzbek and Afghan sabres with the distinct cleft pommels.

The Khanate of Bukhara was of course situated in Uzbekistan in the 18th century, and Uzbekistan included a notable part of Northern Afghanistan until the mid 19th century. As most of these sword forms evolved in these particular times amidst all of this geopolitical turmoil, then it seems almost futile to assign a distinct classification and pattern of features responsibly to any of them unless using other mitigating factors in their decoration etc.

What remains undisputed regardless, is that these 'Central Asian' sabres are some of the most intriguing, beautiful and exciting swords in the spectrum of the sabre.

estcrh · 11th February 2016, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This was noted in what became a rather inconclusive struggle to classify one of these 'shashkas' as either Uzbek or Afghan about 18 years ago.

Jim, while there may not be much in the way of new information since then there are a lot more images available.

Battara · 11th February 2016, 02:37 AM

W

W!

I never heard of Bukharen shashqas until this thread! And what beautiful examples!

Amazing (putting eyes back in their sockets)

mahratt · 11th February 2016, 03:54 AM

Bukhara shashkas from Russian museums.

mahratt · 12th February 2016, 04:28 AM

By the way, a little more about the three rivet.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4632

Gavin Nugent · 10th February 2016, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

oh my!

What is the scabbard made of

Oh my indeed!

Having a pair of hilts in the same manner, this is what I suspect at face value.

I suspect a timber inner core with a possible "Moroccan" leather inner throat area for the blade.
The outer is dressed with a silver, almost entirely like a honey comb or reptile scale pattern, but specifically a random pattern with each hole is the final appearance. Again, I suspect as I only see the final product in hand, but small turquoise and garnet stones are resin inset in to each tiny hole, once cured, ground, polished and shaped with a wheel.
These hilt types are mostly considered as political gifts to other rulers and men of standing as only the Amir had the means for such time, expense and beauty.

Gavin

10th February 2016, 10:30 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Indeed it is great to see this discourse return to the now apparent diversion to this fascinating study of Bukharen and Afghan swords, which in itself is probably one of the most esoteric areas of the edged weapons on Central Asia. It is almost unfortunate that this particular discussion has begun under the title of the original post which pertains to the distinguished Russian artist Vasily Vereshchagin, as these swords certainly deserve their own titled thread to bring in broader interest in their study. Meanwhile, I am very grateful for all of the fantastic pictures of these swords and the most interesting attention to their features and details. I would have to agree however, that this curious debate over the number of rivets or their size is to me fully specious. While there are seemingly some preponderances such as five rivets placed on the Bukharen sabres as appeared in Mr. Flindt's venerable article, he did note potential variances. As far as I can imagine, the development and production of these types of saber (Bukharen) and the cleft pommel shashka like versions attributed to Afghanistan and Uzbekistan are so predisposed to cross diffusion that most finite attribution is unlikely, if not nearly impossible. As I have mentioned many times, as Mr. Flindt once said to me, weapons have NO geographic boundaries. This was noted in what became a rather inconclusive struggle to classify one of these 'shashkas' as either Uzbek or Afghan about 18 years ago. While it I was once told that the Bukharen sabre had of course nothing to do with the shashka, it remains seemingly likely that the profound Russian presence in these regions in the times of the "Great Game" (c. 1813-1907) certainly may have influenced these Uzbek and Afghan sabres with the distinct cleft pommels. The Khanate of Bukhara was of course situated in Uzbekistan in the 18th century, and Uzbekistan included a notable part of Northern Afghanistan until the mid 19th century. As most of these sword forms evolved in these particular times amidst all of this geopolitical turmoil, then it seems almost futile to assign a distinct classification and pattern of features responsibly to any of them unless using other mitigating factors in their decoration etc. What remains undisputed regardless, is that these 'Central Asian' sabres are some of the most intriguing, beautiful and exciting swords in the spectrum of the sabre. Attached Images

11th February 2016, 03:54 AM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Bukhara shashkas from Russian museums. Attached Images

12th February 2016, 04:28 AM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	By the way, a little more about the three rivet. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4632 Attached Images Last edited by mahratt; 12th February 2016 at 06:50 AM.

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10th February 2016, 08:47 PM	#1
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen. What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside? Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

11th February 2016, 02:37 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	W W! I never heard of Bukharen shashqas until this thread! And what beautiful examples! Amazing (putting eyes back in their sockets)