When in India "died" wootz?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Page 973

Many thanks!

Originally Posted by estcrh

One question I have....did Persia actually produce wootz steel, I know they produced steel but was it wootz, or did they import their wootz and just forge the blades in Persia.

This is a difficult question. I do not have data for the 18-19 age. But Al-Biruni wrote that in Herat produced wootz. Herat - is Persia ...

At the same time there is no doubt that the finest blades of wootz steel is made in Persia.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Many thanks!



This is a difficult question. I do not have data for the 18-19 age. But Al-Biruni wrote that in Herat produced wootz. Herat - is Persia ...

At the same time there is no doubt that the finest blades of wootz steel is made in Persia.

By Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani

Saturday, 23 November
I held a public lecture on "Crucible and Welded Steel Weapons on Oriental Weapons: From Persian, Ottoman and Indian Examples". This event was held at the dining room at the President's Palace in Valletta on November 23, 2013 from 10:30 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. The event was held under the distinguished patronage of His Excellency Dr. George Abela, President of Malta. I would like to thank Dr. Abela here again for all his support for the whole event. My table of contents of my presentation included the following: a) Crucible steel, b) Forging process of crucible steel, c) Crucible steel patterns, d) Pattern-welded steel, e) Pattern-welded steel patterns, f) Indian examples, g) Ottoman examples, h) Persian examples and i) Summary.


I started the lecture by introducing how crucible steel was made and showed some picture of the process. I explained that crucible steel was called pulād-e jŏhardār (watered steel) in Persian. Then I showed different crucible steel blade patterns such as a) pulād-e jŏhardār-e mošabak (watered steel with net pattern; a type of crucible steel with woodgrain pattern), b) qaraxorāsāni(black watered steel from Xorāsān / Khorasan), c) pulād-e jŏhardār-e qerq nardebān (watered steel with ladder pattern), d) lolo (pearl pattern; rose pattern), e) pulād-e mavvāj or pulād-e mŏjdār(a type of crucible steel with wavy pattern) and f) pulād-e jŏhardār-e xati (lined watered steel; a type of crucible steel with lined pattern).


In the next step, I moved to the process of how patttern-welded steel was made in Persia. Although pattern-welded steel was used to a limited extent for making blades, it was mostly used for making gun barrels in Persia. The pattern-welded steel is called pulād-e masnu’i (artificial steel; pattern welded steel) that is divided into a) pulād-e motabbaq (layered steel) that is further divided into pulād-e motabbaq-e montazam (layered and ordered steel) and pulād-e motabbaq-e rangi (colored and layered steel) and b) pulād-e piči (twisted steel) that is further divided into pulād-e piči-ye montazam (twisted and ordered steel) and pulād-e piči-ye rangi (twisted and colored steel). Then I showed examples from Indian, Ottoman and Persian edged weapons. The presentation was a huge success and many people really liked it and talked to me after the presentation about these types of steel.

[mahratt]

estcrh, I read a books last days of Russian travelers. Those travelers who were in Persia and Bukhara Khanate in 1820-1900 years. Based on their descriptions - in Persia produced wootz.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

estcrh, I read a books last days of Russian travelers. Those travelers who were in Persia and Bukhara Khanate in 1820-1900 years. Based on their descriptions - in Persia produced wootz.

Then the same thing that happened to wootz production in Indian seems to have happened in Persia as well.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Then the same thing that happened to wootz production in Indian seems to have happened in Persia as well.

I think in Persia this happened to the fact that the army was to move to a European arms. Detachments of irregular cavalry (with ethnic weapon) in Persia were not as significant as for example in Afghanistan or Central Asia. By the way it was from Persia to Central Asia brought blades for swords (including wootz blades) until the 1880s.

[Battara]

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

... and still unable to compare esthetically:-)

But other than the beauty of it, wootz ( old and modern) is still inferior to industially-made steels of today. From the technological point of view we shouldn't be ruing its disappearance. From the esthetical one, the inferior appearance of new wootz blades is also not a bad thing: a blade with a beautiful wootz pattern has a built-in guarantee of being a real antique:-)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm thinking that this is the case with many countries/cultures. It seems that Western arms replaced the need for the beautiful wootz in India, Persia, the Ottoman Empire, and other sites. Though understandable, it is still a shame. Only recently has it been rediscovered after lots of research and lots and lots of experimentation.

You're right, Battara.

The question is when it happened. In the middle of the 19th century or early 20th century. Agree - this is a big difference.