Dragons, Naga and Bakunawa...

Tim Simmons · 19th January 2006, 07:30 PM

My mother-in-law used to be a dragon but she is quite nice these days.

BSMStar · 19th January 2006, 08:37 PM

Here is a tidbit...

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb....matamata.html

themorningstar · 19th January 2006, 09:24 PM

Bakunawa is the feared god of darkness, hopelessness and despair. According to the Hiligaynon peoples, he takes the form of a huge greenish-black dragon. Once in a while, he awakes from his slumber at the bottom of the sea, attempting to wrestle cosmic supremacy from Bathala by eating his gold and silver disks. Bakunawa can raise the fury of nature, creating tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes and lightning storms with just a mere thought. He, however, because of his unorganized motivation, always loses to some other god or goddess, but he always waits for his time.

The great dragon has a whole layer of eerie, calm, black waters in the Abyss, where he spends most of his time planning for his next attack on the other deities.

Though his tactics are mostly disorganized, he usually calls upon powerful mortals to do his bidding. He manipulates them into exactly what he wants and then discards them when they become useless. Omens from Bakunawa come in the form of lightning or eclipses of the sun, moon or stars.

BSMStar · 20th January 2006, 01:00 AM

Yea, I saw this site too... but I did not know what is believable here.

http://members.fortunecity.com/quebec/lloreph.htm

Looks more like a gaming site.

zamboanga · 20th January 2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Here is a tidbit...

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb....matamata.html

The writer of this article was a colleague back when i was working over at sunstar cebu. (hi ma'am mayette!) if i'm not mistaken her husband is a member of the tabada clan which produces those sansibar blades.

zamboanga · 20th January 2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

My mother-in-law used to be a dragon but she is quite nice these days.

LOL

Battara · 20th January 2006, 04:27 PM

BMSstar mentions North American Indian dragons with wings:

Among my Cherokee ancestors, the Uk'tena was a huge water monster that looked like a giant snake with horns on its head and a crystal in the middle of its forhead. Very powerful and magical, killing and eating people. Only a pair of powerful giant birds were able to fight and destroy it. There is also a version of the rattal snake that has wings that has wings (featured on old Cherokee and Mississippian pottery at the time of European contact in the 1500s).

Tim Simmons · 20th January 2006, 05:55 PM

To people in parts of PNG the crocodile is so totemic they might as well be dragons, much as they are the world over. Living with them as some Papuans do dragons are very real. here are three different styles of crocodile from PNG. The longest one is of a very soft light wood and painted,76cm. The next is a heavy dense wood 67cm and the last is burnished low fired earthen ware 18cm. I know these are not weapons but relevant to the topic. Tim

BSMStar · 20th January 2006, 06:44 PM

It seems that dragons are divided into 3 main groups, those who slither (snake like), those with legs and those with wings.

They seem to be associated with water, caves and "deep, dark" forest.

Similarities between dragons (worldwide), scales, horns, teeth, a general reptile like appearance, claws (if they have feet) and sometimes wings. One can see why the "dinosaur bones" explanation was used to answer the origin of the myths.

The only issue I have with the dinosaur fossil connection, 1) the rarity of dinosaur fossil skulls (when was the last time you were wandering around an found one?) 2) how about finding the even more rare intact dinosaur skeleton 3) even modern scientist can not fully agree on what a living animal would have looked like after piecing all the bones together. The exact shape and color???? It's only an educated guess from known modern animal anatomy. And yet we are to believe that 1000 to 4000 years ago, they had this working knowledge of dinosaur anatomy? If true, then the origin of that knowledge sounds more interesting than dragons do.

People who’s survival depends on being able to identify things and animals around them... once they identify an animal such as a croc, they know it is a croc. They may make stories up about it, but it still is a croc. The Tibetans have a mythical croc that is portrayed on the phurpa. It did not become a dragon. I think this is a western mindset to think that these people were "uneducated" and are simply misidentifying known creatures. I think we need to be more open minded. I would have to disagree that worldwide, these people are lacking in smarts.... but I really did not start this thread to debate the existence of dragons or possible dragon origins.

I got started on this thread when I purchased my first Visayan sword... a Sanduko. A real beauty!!!!

Looking at the different Bakunawas on these deity hilts, I started to wonder why it is Bakunawa has a long horn or a short horn? The meaning of the four pedal flower? Being a deity, the must be stories about Bakunawa, deeds, travels, importance (after all, Bakunawa is on a lot of swords) and so on.

But all dragon stories are welcome!!!!!

BSMStar · 20th January 2006, 06:50 PM

Hi Tim,

You sneeked your croc post in while I was typing...

Great pics. But are they dragons?

Tim Simmons · 20th January 2006, 07:11 PM

Well I really do not know. To the Papuans they are magical like dragons are to us. When you live with beasts like these who needs dragons. Images are used very much like else where in the world, heraldry and other symbols of power, magic, good fortune, ill omen and so on. There is the Komodo Dragon if that is the correct spelling. How much of fantasy dragons is based on real life? There are some very big snakes so a naga is not too much a flight of fantasy. Tim

19th January 2006, 08:37 PM	#2
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Something to get started.... Here is a tidbit... http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb....matamata.html Last edited by BSMStar; 20th January 2006 at 01:02 AM.

20th January 2006, 05:55 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	To people in parts of PNG the crocodile is so totemic they might as well be dragons, much as they are the world over. Living with them as some Papuans do dragons are very real. here are three different styles of crocodile from PNG. The longest one is of a very soft light wood and painted,76cm. The next is a heavy dense wood 67cm and the last is burnished low fired earthen ware 18cm. I know these are not weapons but relevant to the topic. Tim Attached Images

20th January 2006, 06:44 PM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	My first Visayan sword It seems that dragons are divided into 3 main groups, those who slither (snake like), those with legs and those with wings. They seem to be associated with water, caves and "deep, dark" forest. Similarities between dragons (worldwide), scales, horns, teeth, a general reptile like appearance, claws (if they have feet) and sometimes wings. One can see why the "dinosaur bones" explanation was used to answer the origin of the myths. The only issue I have with the dinosaur fossil connection, 1) the rarity of dinosaur fossil skulls (when was the last time you were wandering around an found one?) 2) how about finding the even more rare intact dinosaur skeleton 3) even modern scientist can not fully agree on what a living animal would have looked like after piecing all the bones together. The exact shape and color???? It's only an educated guess from known modern animal anatomy. And yet we are to believe that 1000 to 4000 years ago, they had this working knowledge of dinosaur anatomy? If true, then the origin of that knowledge sounds more interesting than dragons do. People who’s survival depends on being able to identify things and animals around them... once they identify an animal such as a croc, they know it is a croc. They may make stories up about it, but it still is a croc. The Tibetans have a mythical croc that is portrayed on the phurpa. It did not become a dragon. I think this is a western mindset to think that these people were "uneducated" and are simply misidentifying known creatures. I think we need to be more open minded. I would have to disagree that worldwide, these people are lacking in smarts.... but I really did not start this thread to debate the existence of dragons or possible dragon origins. I got started on this thread when I purchased my first Visayan sword... a Sanduko. A real beauty!!!! Looking at the different Bakunawas on these deity hilts, I started to wonder why it is Bakunawa has a long horn or a short horn? The meaning of the four pedal flower? Being a deity, the must be stories about Bakunawa, deeds, travels, importance (after all, Bakunawa is on a lot of swords) and so on. But all dragon stories are welcome!!!!!

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19th January 2006, 07:30 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	My mother-in-law used to be a dragon but she is quite nice these days.

19th January 2006, 09:24 PM	#3
themorningstar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 55	Bakunawa is the feared god of darkness, hopelessness and despair. According to the Hiligaynon peoples, he takes the form of a huge greenish-black dragon. Once in a while, he awakes from his slumber at the bottom of the sea, attempting to wrestle cosmic supremacy from Bathala by eating his gold and silver disks. Bakunawa can raise the fury of nature, creating tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes and lightning storms with just a mere thought. He, however, because of his unorganized motivation, always loses to some other god or goddess, but he always waits for his time. The great dragon has a whole layer of eerie, calm, black waters in the Abyss, where he spends most of his time planning for his next attack on the other deities. Though his tactics are mostly disorganized, he usually calls upon powerful mortals to do his bidding. He manipulates them into exactly what he wants and then discards them when they become useless. Omens from Bakunawa come in the form of lightning or eclipses of the sun, moon or stars.

20th January 2006, 01:00 AM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Yea, I saw this site too... but I did not know what is believable here. http://members.fortunecity.com/quebec/lloreph.htm Looks more like a gaming site.

20th January 2006, 04:27 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	BMSstar mentions North American Indian dragons with wings: Among my Cherokee ancestors, the Uk'tena was a huge water monster that looked like a giant snake with horns on its head and a crystal in the middle of its forhead. Very powerful and magical, killing and eating people. Only a pair of powerful giant birds were able to fight and destroy it. There is also a version of the rattal snake that has wings that has wings (featured on old Cherokee and Mississippian pottery at the time of European contact in the 1500s).

20th January 2006, 06:50 PM	#10
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Hi Tim, You sneeked your croc post in while I was typing... Great pics. But are they dragons?

20th January 2006, 07:11 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Well I really do not know. To the Papuans they are magical like dragons are to us. When you live with beasts like these who needs dragons. Images are used very much like else where in the world, heraldry and other symbols of power, magic, good fortune, ill omen and so on. There is the Komodo Dragon if that is the correct spelling. How much of fantasy dragons is based on real life? There are some very big snakes so a naga is not too much a flight of fantasy. Tim