A basket hilted swords for comments

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The kings heads of course are normally associated with Wundes, but these used as punction amidst the lettering for ANDREA FERARA profoundly atypical...

Thank you Jim but ... this is not that much atypical. Since i started lurking at this sword and browsed the Net about possible similarities, i found a couple examples with this specific type of markings. Actually at this very moment i spotted a sword sold at Thomasdelmar with the same name inscription (Andrea Farara and not Ferara) and with the same interspersed four kings figure.
I too would like so much to see Jasper and Ulfberth coming in on this one.


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[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Fernando, I had not recalled seeing that configuration offhand, but hadn't checked resources yet at my note. It is good that you found that other example, and now I am curious. I have seen the number of kings head vary but mostly in threes, and the note I recalled with four was verbal and seemed sort of an anomaly relative to the many other threes and singles.

C'mon Ulfberth and Jasper!!!

[cornelistromp]

@Jim and Fernando,
you should ask E.B. Erickson and Cathey.

they know a lot about this type of basket hilt.

I'm more in continental weapons from 1000-1600, with the exception of weapons which are carried in the Netherlands, which runs until 1800.

best,
Jasper

[fernando]

In any case, thanks for your prompt reaction, Jasper

[ulfberth]

Hi Fernando,

First let me say that there is no doubt that this is an Original sword and all parts belong together, a untouched and pure sword.
Im no expert on basket hilts but my first impression was English mid 18th C. it could be European to.
Here is what I found, ( see pics ) its not the same but it does have the kings heads and brass basket hilt. Altough the blade is in the style of the late 16th C , I believe this could be a German 18th C blade for export, including the Ferara name for quality or economical reasons, this is of course speculation.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you Jim but ... this is not that much atypical. Since i started lurking at this sword and browsed the Net about possible similarities, i found a couple examples with this specific type of markings. Actually at this very moment i spotted a sword sold at Thomasdelmar with the same name inscription (Andrea Farara and not Ferara) and with the same interspersed four kings figure.
I too would like so much to see Jasper and Ulfberth coming in on this one.


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Mea culpa Nando, what I 'should' have said is that the grouping was unusual to me, as clearly you found another example quite readily. I suppose I am simply more accustomed to seeing the kings head grouping in threes as seen on the example posted by Ulfberth.

I would note that the example you posted (in #3)is a basket hilt of 'Stirling' form c.1715 (Darling, 1974, p.82) so interesting to see blade so marked in that time frame.

If I am not mistaken, the hilt on your example discussed in this thread is brass. It would seem that dragoon swords were produced in brass in Glasgow around 1720s (Mazansky, 2005, p.108).

I think Ulfberths inclination toward English character is correct though I had also thought this might be a Continental piece. In checking Danish and Dutch sources I found nothing in this type basket corresponding, and the pommel redirects to British. It is actually a combination of Mazansky typology IV and VI, with somewhat taller oblate form (Mazansky, op,cit.p23).

I am inclined to think this is indeed a British dragoon sword, but with the wire grip and Turks head to an officer. The blade is most certainly of c. 1715+ and Solingen, and as shown with these kings heads intermittent with the well established ANDREA FERARA name which catered to Scottish market. The kings head with beard do not correspond to the early Wundes form and are facing opposite from examples shown. The bearded versions are of Johannes Wundes the elder 1560-1610 and later Wundes group had no beard and more stylized.
The blade is of course far later than that type kings head of the early Wundes.

The 'different' application of these kings heads as punction with the ANDREA FERARA name suggests to me (as noted by Ulfberth as well) that these blades though from Solingen were produced with spurious kings heads alluding to the Wundes makers (Weyersberg did not adopt the mark until 1774) and obviously commercially gauged, in numbers unclear but of the period shown.

Most dragoon sword blades of this period early 18th century were backsword, but officers had the option to broadswords. Many of the Scottish units in British ranks, particularly officers had brass swords in the post 1715 period and later of course.
This again looks like an officers sword, probably 'garrison' made in either Glasgow or Edinburgh, more likely Edinburgh c. 1715-50 .

Works consulted:
"British Basket Hilt Swords" , Dr. Cyril Mazansky, 2005 (p.216, p212,.p.108, p.23)
"Blanke Wapens", J.P.Puype, Amsterdam, 1981, Dutch arms
"Gamle Danske Militaer Vaben" , Th. Moller, Copenhagen, 1963, Danish arms
"British Basket Hilt Cavalry Swords " , Anthony Darling, Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting , Vol. 7, #3, 1974, p. 82, p.92)

"European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", Staffan Kinman, Stockholm, 2015, (p.119)

"German Swords and Sword Makers" Richard Bezdek, 2000, p.160-161.

[ulfberth]

Thank you Jim for the very complete research and arguments.
It seems that the name Andrea Ferrara was needed on every broadsword or backsword blade from the late 16th C to the late 18th C especially if the blades were intended Scottish or English market.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[fernando]

Yes, great input Jim.
Let me digest all said and register it.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Yes, great input Jim.
Let me digest all said and register it.

Bon appe'tit Fernando!

I am with Ulfberth , speechless on this tidbit on this sword.
Wow, '69, the summer of love ,man!

So we have EIGHT kingsheads, along with Andrea Ferara. Maybe these became a kind of talismanic or quality symbol, and the more kingsheads the more mojo.
I am now compelled to find more of the kings head phenomenon data, and to discover how many variations and configurations can be catalogued

[fernando]

Wait a minute, guys .
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?

[Cathey]

HI Fernando

Great Basket, you must be very excited to acquire it. Unfortunately with basket hilts the blade don't help us much as they where rarely of local manufacture and everyone wanted some version of Farara on them.

This brings us back to the hilt, which at first I thought British dragoon variation, however having now become aware of the popularity of Basket hilts in France I am leaning toward s this one being French or continental. Haven't found one with these elegant rounded bars in my data base yet so I will dig into my library and see if something pops up.

The wonderful thing about basket hilts is the variations are endless and keep up guessing. As I said great sword, wish it was in my collection.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Wait a minute, guys .
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?

Actually no, but here is another good lesson in accepting data from a 'news item' verbatim as accurate. In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either.
I guess its kinda like using art to research weaponry , in a thoroughly riveting concurrent discussion on another thread. Always need to verify!!

Cathey, thank you so much for the outstanding reference to this European example! as well as cross referencing to your excellent thread on basket hilts which thankfully maintains fantastic momentum. It is great to have this expanded view of basket hilted forms elsewhere in Europe.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

...Since i started lurking at this sword and browsed the Net about possible similarities, i found a couple examples with this specific type of markings...

One of which i have just recalled having kept in my hard disk, concerning an announcement in the Glasgow Herald published in Nov. 1969, in that an auction to be held at Christie's would include five rare swords that belonged to the Marquis of Tweeddale ...

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[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by fernando

One of which i have just recalled having kept in my hard disk, concerning an announcement in the Glasgow Herald published in Nov. 1969, in that an auction to be held at Christie's would include five rare swords that belonged to the Marquis of Tweeddale ...

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Well Fernando I'm speechless