A composite 17 th century sword for comment.

Jim McDougall · 1st February 2016, 04:23 PM

This thread and the entire discourse is outstanding!! I cannot thank all of you participating here enough for these observations and the great illustrations.
This is like a course in arms study, and for an old nomad like me in a Winnebago who seldom sees or handles actual weapons in person, it is amazing

I thank Jen Luc for always sharing the excitement of new items he acquires so we can learn from them (Jasper, as you agree none of us ever stops learning).

Ulfberth, thank you for your astute skills in observing details on the metal work and components in their character.......things I certainly miss each time never escape your eye!

Jasper, if I may, it seems you mentioned that the spelling of Solingen adapted to that form at some point in time, leaving the SALINGEN spelling behind. Can you please reiterate?

On the blocked letters on the blade of original post, I would have taken them for more modern as they seem so heavily stamped and don't seem to have the fine serifs and flourished features of the early examples shown in some of these illustrations. Only experience and keen eye as with you guys could discern that these are indeed early.
Would that be likely from shop variation or worn stamps etc?

cornelistromp · 1st February 2016, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Jasper, if I may, it seems you mentioned that the spelling of Solingen adapted to that form at some point in time, leaving the SALINGEN spelling behind. Can you please reiterate?

this is own interpretation!
nevertheless the silver hilted rapier from post nr16 with the MEFECIT SALINGEN blade is attributed by Claude Blair, the keeper of metalwork in the Victoria & Albert Museum for ten years before his retirement in 1982, to a Solingen workshop.
my date of 1630 , 10 years earlier for the rapier's is also own interpretation.

best,

cornelistromp · 2nd February 2016, 05:01 PM

this one is also nice.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd February 2016, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

this is own interpretation!
nevertheless the silver hilted rapier from post nr16 with the MEFECIT SALINGEN blade is attributed by Claude Blair, the keeper of metalwork in the Victoria & Albert Museum for ten years before his retirement in 1982, to a Solingen workshop.
my date of 1630 , 10 years earlier for the rapier's is also own interpretation.

best,

Salaams all.. Magnificent thread! ... In reference to http://art-of-swords.tumblr.com/post...lace-of-origin What does the text imply about this spelling? It appears to indicate that Latin uses the SALINGEN form rather than SOLINGEN. Is this the case here?

Quote"The hilt of this sword was made in England, almost certainly in London, but its plain, serviceable blade is stamped with a Latin inscription indicating that it was made in Solingen, Germany".Unquote

In that region in the past it has been called similar names but not Salingen: From wikepedia Quote "Solingen was first mentioned in 1067 by a chronicler who called the area "Solonchon". Early variations of the name included "Solengen", "Solungen", and "Soleggen", although the modern name seems to have been in use since the late 14th and early 15th centuries". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd February 2016, 06:55 PM

I Quote" Salingen a Sword Cutler.—A sword in my possession, with inlaid basket guard, perhaps of the early part of the seventeenth century, is inscribed on the blade "Salingen me fecit." If this is the name of a sword cutler, who was he, and when and where did he live?"Unquote.

T.S. LAWRENCE.
(SEE this quote on page 133 at Gutenbergs page on http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13736...-h/13736-h.htm)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

cornelistromp · 2nd February 2016, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I Quote" Salingen a Sword Cutler.—A sword in my possession, with inlaid basket guard, perhaps of the early part of the seventeenth century, is inscribed on the blade "Salingen me fecit." If this is the name of a sword cutler, who was he, and when and where did he live?"Unquote.

T.S. LAWRENCE.
(SEE this quote on page 133 at Gutenbergs page on http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13736...-h/13736-h.htm)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

famous quote by Jasper:

Quote" there were more strange things said about weapons in the 19th century. "unquote

cornelistromp · 2nd February 2016, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It appears to indicate that Latin uses the SALINGEN form rather than SOLINGEN. Is this the case here?

no this is not the case MEFECIT SOLINGEN and MEFECIT SALINGEN are both Latin.

it only indicates that the V & A specialist attributes the blade to Solingen, nothing more.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd February 2016, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

no this is not the case MEFECIT SOLINGEN and MEFECIT SALINGEN are both Latin.

it only indicates that the V & A specialist attributes the blade to Solingen, nothing more.

Salaams cornelistromp, I can see where the confusion may have crept in regarding the different spelling therefor I wish to place a counter theory to the project sword's inscription.

I suggest it is linked to the phonetics of the original word SOLINGEN where the second letter O sounds like oh as opposed to for example SOPHIA...where it sounds like o as in old..
When transferred to Latin the inscriber may well have selected the letter in Latin with the closest Phonetic sound which is A
Thus SALINGEN.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2016, 07:18 PM

Very true Jasper!! MANY strange things about weapons were said in the 19th century as actual study and scholarship became measures in the observation of the many old weapons in many holdings. These very 'chestnuts' are often almost entertaining as we continue to advance in our understanding of the actual history of these weapon forms.

Good observations Ibrahiim on the choice of spellings, which of course in many cases can direct to possible region for origin of the weapon, or in cases of course the literacy or linguistics of the engraver.

I had thought that perhaps the use of SALINGEN might have been suggestive of earlier use of the spelling, much as with words which develop in connotation or spelling over time. The spelling SOHLINGEN is also known but does not seem as commonly present in inscriptions on blades, at least in my experience.
However, it seems that it would be difficult to ascribe a definite period or end of use for particular spellings which are likely to be incidental cases attributed to the engraver alone, just as you suggest concerning the use of Latin. These aspects are so highly subjective though that they are hard to pursue with confidence.

Still, it is that kind of thinking that affords us so many opportunities in learning and understanding more on the history of these weapons.

2nd February 2016, 05:01 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	this one is also nice. Attached Images

2nd February 2016, 06:55 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	A famous quotation.. I Quote" Salingen a Sword Cutler.—A sword in my possession, with inlaid basket guard, perhaps of the early part of the seventeenth century, is inscribed on the blade "Salingen me fecit." If this is the name of a sword cutler, who was he, and when and where did he live?"Unquote. T.S. LAWRENCE. (SEE this quote on page 133 at Gutenbergs page on http://www.gutenberg.org/files/13736...-h/13736-h.htm) Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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1st February 2016, 04:23 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	This thread and the entire discourse is outstanding!! I cannot thank all of you participating here enough for these observations and the great illustrations. This is like a course in arms study, and for an old nomad like me in a Winnebago who seldom sees or handles actual weapons in person, it is amazing I thank Jen Luc for always sharing the excitement of new items he acquires so we can learn from them (Jasper, as you agree none of us ever stops learning). Ulfberth, thank you for your astute skills in observing details on the metal work and components in their character.......things I certainly miss each time never escape your eye! Jasper, if I may, it seems you mentioned that the spelling of Solingen adapted to that form at some point in time, leaving the SALINGEN spelling behind. Can you please reiterate? On the blocked letters on the blade of original post, I would have taken them for more modern as they seem so heavily stamped and don't seem to have the fine serifs and flourished features of the early examples shown in some of these illustrations. Only experience and keen eye as with you guys could discern that these are indeed early. Would that be likely from shop variation or worn stamps etc?

3rd February 2016, 07:18 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Very true Jasper!! MANY strange things about weapons were said in the 19th century as actual study and scholarship became measures in the observation of the many old weapons in many holdings. These very 'chestnuts' are often almost entertaining as we continue to advance in our understanding of the actual history of these weapon forms. Good observations Ibrahiim on the choice of spellings, which of course in many cases can direct to possible region for origin of the weapon, or in cases of course the literacy or linguistics of the engraver. I had thought that perhaps the use of SALINGEN might have been suggestive of earlier use of the spelling, much as with words which develop in connotation or spelling over time. The spelling SOHLINGEN is also known but does not seem as commonly present in inscriptions on blades, at least in my experience. However, it seems that it would be difficult to ascribe a definite period or end of use for particular spellings which are likely to be incidental cases attributed to the engraver alone, just as you suggest concerning the use of Latin. These aspects are so highly subjective though that they are hard to pursue with confidence. Still, it is that kind of thinking that affords us so many opportunities in learning and understanding more on the history of these weapons.