Kris question to the knowledgeables

[Rick]

Pusaka don't make public judgements on another person's demeanor . I think that you need to answer Nechesh's questions and he needs to answer yours and John's; that will allow the debate to continue in a civilised manner .

If this thread devolves into unpleasantness I'll close it ; everyone take a deep breath count to ten and resume .

[Pusaka]

Personally I am satisfied that the markings relate to the Om symbol and have the same meaning, this is my own personal belief so I am not saying you must agree. Im sure there is very little difference between a Javanese Om symbol and a Balinese Om symbol. We can see relationships in them all.

[nechesh]

John, you are absolutely right. And to Pusaka, my apologies for suggesting you were being arrogant to assume that if you saw no meaning in something that it simply doesn't exist. That was a judgement on my part and may very well have been an incorrect one. Sometimes we hit the enter key before we completely think things through.
Still John, your post here seems like something best dealt with in PM as i think we are back on the academic track now and i think finger pointing will only tend to derail that. Also, Pusaka seems the kind of chap who is very capable of fighting his own battles. Yes, i was guilty as well, and for that i am sorry. I had already PMed Pusaka to say as much and offer him help in his studies. Let's move on, shall we?

[MABAGANI]

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

[Sang Keris]

Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

[Spunjer]

thanks for the link, mabagani!

[Pusaka]

Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

[Mans]

Hi Dear all,

Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture.

In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning.

So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self.

So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris.

Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion.

Regards,

Mans.

Note :
Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote.

Ups, Sang Keris has told it

[Pusaka]

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Mabagani, thank you for this very interesting website. It is worth viewing just for the wonderful illustration at the bottom of the page. One thing i noticed as i look through each illustration that was driven home every time i came to a grouping of keris was just how unique the form of the keris is. It is unlike ANY of the displayed Indian weapon forms. It is interesting, however to see a feature that IS similar to the keris sogokan on these Indian spearheads, but the asymetric blade and seperate gonjo are features i have seen no where else.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Thanks for the link. This collection of material has had several incarnations over the last six years or so. It has popped up with at least three or four different URLs to my knowledge, tending to disappear each time after a few months. So catch it while you can -- a lot of scans, many from Egerton, Stone, and other well known sources.

Ian.

[MABAGANI]

I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time.
http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm
http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/...bananindex.htm

[Pusaka]

In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas.
In relation the quote below taken from:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...k_projects.htm

• Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there.
• Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all.

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.
Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals.
Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

[Rick]

Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ?

A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor .
A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects .

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

Pusaka, one of the authors i recommended to you in my last PM, Margaret Wiemer, wrote an excellent book called "Visible and Invisible Realms" which is essential reading for the understanding of keris pusaka. Indian influences not withstanding, i believe that you might find that the idea of pusaka is a more indigenious one to the Indonesian area. Also you will find that a great many powerful pusaka are completely unadorned and simple looking blades.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.

Pusaka, I would be careful at jumping to conclusions, just because meteoritic iron contains nickel, that nickel content alone will "retard" rusting.

Pictures of a Kansas Pallasite (see thread Meteor in the Raw) have shown up from time to time... the small sample I have in my collection has completely rusted away since purchasing it. I also have a sizable chunk of Canyon Diablo (Meteor Crater), an Iron (coarse octahedrite), it actually contains a mineral that will accelerate rusting of the iron when expose to the atmosphere. It is not a pretty thing. Meteorites are not "stainless steel" just because they contain nickel and the iron component will readily rust (if unprotected), even when forged into a blade.

Ataxites contain the highest nickel content (around 16% nickel), I would like to see one that does not rust like any other iron meteorite.
Octahedrites (about 7 to 10% nickel)
Hexahedrites (about 4 to 7% nickel)

Just talk with anyone that trys to protect their meteorite imvestment. It is a challenge.