Is gold or suasa 'better'?

[kai]

Hello David,

While Rumphius was indeed in Batavia for for 4 years from 1653-7, where he began as a midshipman and ended as an engineer and ensign,

There are quite a few conflicting dates regarding Rumpf's biography - I'm not sure if it is feasible or necessary to dig into this? It seems that he left for the Moluccas in 1954 at the latest (the recent account by Baas & Veldkamp 2013 stating him leaving Batavia "after some weeks" only!). Despite him (possibly early on and definitely later on) staying connected to Bataviaasch VOC circles, it seems fair to state (judging from the corpus of his notes) that Java was not his major playground and we may have to accept it being more likely for him to include some erroneous info, too.

i am not convinced that he began his ethnographic studies until he left the service to continue as a civilian employee of the VOC.

There are also ample natural history notes from his earlier "stay" in Portugal. He had a high-level education and obviously was one of those homo universalis (Universalgelehrte, i. e. scientists interested in just about everything) of days past. Thus, it seems very reasonable to assume that he was always collecting data...

He didn't begin his serious studies of the flora and fauna of Ambon until 1662, 5 years after his arrival there. The book linked above wasn't published until 1705, 3 years after his death.

It's a wonder that (most of) the manuscript got compiled as well as survived at all: author becoming blind, earthquake & tsunami, ship sunk in transit, VOC declaring it a trade secret...

BTW, I'm fairly sure that he started observing and collecting right after his arrival - arguably, it will be difficult to ascertain how much time he could spend while serving for the military arm of the VOC (which he left in 1657 and settled down as a VOC merchant).

His masterwork, Herbarium Amboinense, wasn't published until 39 years after his death in 1741. What a shame not to have seen all his efforts come to fruition in his lifetime.

It was not unusual in those times to have the magnum opus published posthumously, especially with many visiting the tropics passing away within a few years. FWIW, he already got recognised as one if not the leading authority on tropical plants during his life time; I guess this helped to face the many adverse events during his life.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

MAURICE, I do understand that you have indicated your desire to leave this discussion, but you have asked me specific questions, and I would be quite ill-mannered were I to ignore your questions.

Thus:-
Do you have such old information written about gold, that this had been preferred over suassa considering its talismanic aspects?

No.

Or is it for collectors assumably because more gold is found instead of suassa?

I do not understand the question

I really do have some considerable difficulty in understanding just exactly what is being thrown back and forth here.

It seems that the point being examined is whether or not some people, at some time, in some place preferred suasa to gold because of some supposed talismanic qualities possessed by suasa.

We have no definite, supported evidence to confirm that this is so, merely the comment of a European visitor to the Dutch East Indies, 300 odd years ago. Yes, the man who made the comment was a trained observer, yes, he had a reputation as an ethnographer as well as a considerable reputation as a naturalist, but the fact remains that his comment on suasa appears to be just a passing comment.


I do not believe that anybody who has been party to this current discussion has challenged the possibility that suasa may have been preferred by some people at some time, and that possibly the preference may have been based upon some reputed talismanic qualities rather than the desire to keep one's head, or for one to appear more wealthy than was truly the case.

Let us never forget that at some places and during some times, in the region concerned, the wearing of gold on keris, and for other purposes, was very strictly confined to certain people.

So is there any element of dispute or disagreement in this discussion?

Perhaps David is a little sceptical of this suasa talismanic thing being a wide ranging belief; perhaps I am a little sceptical of the comments being anything other than common gossip, but our scepticism is not at all important, simply because the possibility of talismanic properties being associated with suasa is virtually a foregone conclusion, bearing in mind the cultural and societal beliefs and practices of the peoples concerned.

The comments of G.E. Rumphius are entirely in concert with the social and cultural elements of the time and place. These comments are neither remarkable, nor are they important, they are simply one more smidgen of information of this type to add to our already bulging basket that is overflowing with comments, remarks and rumours concerning the possible and probable beliefs of peoples with a magical world view.

However, in spite of what I have written above, I do have a couple of further matters that I would like to address:-

MAURICE:-

Rumphius mentions the word "Susuhunan" (Sussuhunam), and "Javanese", thus he is quite clear that he is referring to a specific societal group. The Javanese people lived, and live, in "The Land of Jawa", this is not the same as "The Island of Jawa". So, although Batavia was located on The Island of Jawa, it most definitely was not located in The Land of Jawa.

It is my firm belief that G.E.Rumphius did not ever venture far outside Batavia, or the lands under VOC control.

In the 1600's, and even much later, it would have been quite unwise for a European to have done so. Although the Dutch had the The Wheel, and similar ingenious methods of justice, the indigenous peoples of The Island of Jawa were not far behind the Dutch in their application of physical pain to whatever Europeans they could capture. Old reports tell of saplings being bent and the ankles of unfortunate Europeans being attached to these saplings, as the saplings slowly straightened, the Europeans were slowly separated into two bundles of bleeding, quivering flesh and entrails. No, G. E. Rumphius would not have gone wandering off into Mataram seeking information, he would have remained within the territories under Dutch control.

Thus, his references to the Javanese and the Susuhunan would have been garnered at some remove from the actual place concerned.

But here we have a problem.

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

To my mind there are just too many questions associated with this supposedly original comment made by G.E. Rumphius. Bearing in mind that the publication of his works, some time after his death, needed to be a commercial success, I really do think that examination of his original text would be needed to confirm some of the comments attributed to him, comments that would be of interest to a general readership.

KAI:-
You mention:-

" However, I'm with Maurice that Rumphius' account certainly needs to be taken into account since it is one of the few very early *and* extensive sources and actually quite similar to the important Chinese reports."

Would you be so kind as to provide the references for these Chinese reports?

Thank you.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

To my mind there are just too many questions associated with this supposedly original comment made by G.E. Rumphius. Bearing in mind that the publication of his works, some time after his death, needed to be a commercial success, I really do think that examination of his original text would be needed to confirm some of the comments attributed to him, comments that would be of interest to a general readership.

Alan, if you noticed my post #36 you will see that i have placed a link to this published text in the original Old Dutch. Tricky to translate, but certainly doable i suppose. If you go to this text you will see that it is a searchable database. However, searches for "Susuhunan", "Sussuhunam" and "Sussuhunan" produce no hits whatsoever. I realize that Maurice is busy and my not return to this discussion anytime soon, but i am curious where the English translation he provided came from that uses the word "Sussuhunam" and what word was actual used in the original text in it's place.
Btw, just to clarify, i am not in the least skeptical that suasa as a talismanic metal could be wide ranging. My skepticism lay in the claim that it would ever be preferred over purer gold materials.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry for my misunderstanding of your scepticism David, however even if it was directed at the preference question, I believe we could possibly allow that in some places amongst some people, suasa might have been preferred to gold for specific purposes.

However we look at this matter, it seems to me that we're all pretty much on the same page.

I did not look at the Old Dutch text, I cannot make any sense of Modern Dutch, so I would have even less hope of making sense of Old Dutch.

Link in post 36

I've had a look at your link David.

See page 204, last para above the line and "V HOOFTDEEL"

It is spelt as "SUSSUHUNAM" with the double"S" looking like "FF"

So the published copy does have this word in place

[kai]

Hello David,

If you go to this text you will see that it is a searchable database

This is a general feature (for digital texts) which does not work with photographed sources as in this case.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages?

Thanks.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages

I was not referring to suasa being specifically discussed in any anals that I remember. I was just trying to get across that the Chinese anals and Rumpf's work are important early sources that deserve to be taken seriously (or rather properly researched) even if some details are obviously off (based on second-hand info or misunderstanding).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

This is a general feature (for digital texts) which does not work with photographed sources as in this case.

Sorry Kai, but you are incorrect on that one. Try putting in a word you know is there such as "Suaffa" or "Batavia". The search engine works just fine and the one on the bottom will give you indictor marks of all the places in the text where the word appears. Hover over the indicator and the passage will appear in a pop-up or click on the indicator and it will bring you directly to the page.
What this tells me is the the words "Sussuhunam" or "Susuhunan" are not in this text.
However, what i failed to do was to use "ff" instead of "ss" when searching the text. So one must search for "Suffuhunam" instead. The only references point for this word in the text appear to be three, on pages 204, 205 and 206.

[Shakethetrees]

Is there any authoritative information available giving the composition of suassa?

I suspect it is a somewhat variable mix that was determined by availability, local tradition, or even the smith's personal composition.

There seems to be a good deal of color variation.

Alloys have always fascinated me, especially the ones that go against the Western tradition of maintaining a certain gold or silver standard.

What comes to mind are the many Japanese alloys developed for sword mount furniture, where minuscule amounts of precious metals were mixed with copper and other metals and treated with various chemicals achieving colors unavailable to traditional western metalwork.

This is something that should be studied.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Would you be so kind as to provide the references for these Chinese reports?

E. g. Ma Huan (earlier than Rumpf's account though); those Chinese annals seem to have a quite similar perspective than the VOC and other early European accounts; certainly, all have to be taken with a lump of salt.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Alan,

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

Rumpf's text mentions susuhunan several times; in the middle of page 206 he specifically mentions "Sussuhunam Amancurat" when reporting on a military episode in April 25th, 1680. [This fits well with the Dutch helping to reinstall Sunan Amangkurat II during this period and also his adversary "rebel troenajaja" aka Raden Trunajaya is mentioned.]

While it is possible that one of the editors of Rumpf's work did sneak in the title susuhunan before its publishing in 1705, I believe this to be pretty unlikely. Are there really no other sources on the use of this title during late Mataram reigns?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Without wanting to get sidetracked too much: AFAIK, the later rulers of Mataram (and Surakarta) are quite universely referred to as "Sunan" which is just a short version of "Susuhunan" - any reasons why this should not be a contemporary usage?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Alan,

Rumpf's text mentions susuhunan several times; in the middle of page 206 he specifically mentions "Sussuhunam Amancurat" when reporting on a military episode in April 25th, 1680. [This fits well with the Dutch helping to reinstall Sunan Amangkurat II during this period and also his adversary "rebel troenajaja" aka Raden Trunajaya is mentioned.]

While it is possible that one of the editors of Rumpf's work did sneak in the title susuhunan before its publishing in 1705, I believe this to be pretty unlikely. Are there really no other sources on the use of this title during late Mataram reigns?

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much for your clarification Kai.

None of this can be regarded as "sidetrack". When we look at early reports it is the language used in those reports that gives an indication as to their authenticity and reliability.

Sometimes later editions of a report will include words that were not in common usage at the time the original report was written; sometimes a European will use a word that although it would have existed at the time of the report, was not in use in the area covered by the report, or was not used in the way in which the European used it.

These are the clues that permit verification.

Incidentally, this method of verification is not exclusive to early reports dealing with old S.E.Asia, it is a method that is applied to the analysis of reports from anywhere and any time, and is a tool that I have used in my profession for many years.

To understand how reliable any report may be it is essential that the language in that report must be analysed. It can never be taken at face value.

Yes, I agree that the work of G.E. Rumphius must be given some weight. I further agree that in this respect his reports are similar to those of the Ying Yai Sheng Lan. My apologies for my misunderstanding of your original comment.

The truly interesting response you have provided is the information that the Dutch were referring to Amangkurat as "susuhunan".

This is so interesting that it forced me back to some reference books to refresh my memory, which would seem to be at fault.

What I found was this:-

the Javanese word "susuhunan" appears to have first been used in a royal title by the second ruler of the second kingdom of Mataram, Raden Mas Jolang --- Sri Susuhunan Adi Prabu Hanyakrawati Senapati-ing-Ngalaga Mataram --- the son of Panembahan Senopati, the first ruler of Mataram. This would have been very early in the 17th century.

The appearance of the word in royal titles after this is very inconsistent and in fact gives the impression that the titles varied according to who wrote the book or report.

Susuhunan does not appear to be known by Zoetmulder, so it can probably be taken not to have existed in Old Javanese. The rulers of Mataram are acknowledged as one of the prime moving forces in the emergence of Modern Javanese, so it is likely that the second ruler of Mataram originated the word, or at least, one of his court poets did, at his command.

Pakubuwana II was the last ruler of Kartasura and the first ruler of Surakarta. It seems that he began to use the word "susuhunan" as a part of his title after the shift to Surakarta.

"Susuhunan" has continued in use as a part of the title of the rulers of Surakarta.

The word "sinuhun" is sometimes taken as a synonym, or a derivative of "susuhunan" This is erroneous. "Sinuhun" must be understood as "lord", and is a part of the royal title of the rulers of Surakarta, it is used colloquially to refer to these rulers.


"State and Statecraft in Old Java" --- Soemarsaid Moertono is an accepted reference for politics in Mataram. Moertono claims that "susuhunan" is a Javanese word that is the result of changing a root word, "sunan", by interpolation of the infixes to create a word inferring religious authority, thus "sunan" is the original short form, "susuhunan" is the later Javanese form. However, he then goes on to claim that "sunan" has the word "suwun" as its root, which he gives as "to bow one's head". Regrettably Moertono's interpretations are at odds with current lexicographers. This tends to cast doubt on his opinions in this matter, in spite of the fact that he is Javanese.

However, De Graaf accepts the title as having religious implications, and this opinion must be taken seriously.

The word "sunan" was used by the walis as a part of their title, the walis were the apostles of Islam in Jawa, by inclusion of this word in a royal title it inferred that the ruler was also a religious leader. However, lexicographers do not accept "sunan" as a short form, or abbreviation of "susuhunan" , they regard "sunan" as having an Islamic association, and "susuhunan" as having a Javanese association, in fact, two separate words.

If we accept Moertono the developmental progression could be :-

suwun > sunan > susuhunan

even though I'm not certain we can accept this, it certainly does look like a nice neat solution to the matter.

Which brings us back to the use of "susuhunan" in the Rumphius publication.

It would appear that Europeans at that time were in the habit of referring to the rulers of Mataram as the "susuhunan", whether or not that word formed a part of the official title. If this is indeed the case, the appearance of "susuhunan" in Rumphius' work is not surprising.