Is gold or suasa 'better'?

David R · 25th December 2015, 12:05 PM

Somewhere in this Forum there is a conversation about Gold versus Suasa and one comment made was that pure Gold was not "good for a Muslim" and so Suasa was used instead. I believe that in the Koran or in the Hadith there are various comments about vain display and even an injunction not to drink from a Gold cup.
I suspect the original passage above was a reflection of this idea.

Maurice · 25th December 2015, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Somewhere in this Forum there is a conversation about Gold versus Suasa and one comment made was that pure Gold was not "good for a Muslim" and so Suasa was used instead. I believe that in the Koran or in the Hadith there are various comments about vain display and even an injunction not to drink from a Gold cup.
I suspect the original passage above was a reflection of this idea.

The Original passage above, is not saying that they use suassa instead of gold.
It says suassa is preferred because of thoughts that the one who wears it should be free of all kind of bad luck if something hit him, disease, or in war times.
Also it tells us that the emperor wears it more than gold, not that he did not wear gold.

Maybe gold was the most valuable bullion, but suassa could have been used more as talismanic purposes as gold, I suppose.

David · 25th December 2015, 10:55 PM

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the quoted passage is simply incorrect. That does happen as i am sure you all know. I cannot say that is the case here with any assuredness, however, everything that i have ever read previously about gold, specifically in regards to Javanese culture, falls more in line with what Alan has said. I am away from my reference books at the moment, but i do have one that is specifically related to the use of gold in Javanese culture and i will check in with that when i return. I cannot say, however, that i can recall seeing much of any use of suasa on Javanese keris at all and find the idea that any Javanese Susuhunan or Sultan would prefer suasa to pure gold a bit of a strange one indeed.

Battara · 26th December 2015, 01:43 AM

Cato in his Moro Swords states a similar idea, that suassa was preferred due to the effect of gold on men (making them weak).

I suspect also that another reason is expense as well as color variation.

David · 26th December 2015, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Cato in his Moro Swords states a similar idea, that suassa was preferred due to the effect of gold on men (making them weak).

I suspect also that another reason is expense as well as color variation.

Yes, i've seen that info. Even if true, however, we certainly should not make the mistake of assuming that what might be true in Moro culture is also true in Jawa, Bali or other cultures of Indonesia. Since we are on the keris forum we should probably try to keep this discussion keris specific.

ariel · 26th December 2015, 04:51 AM

True enough.
But to be honest, I also think that color of swassa is richer and more exquisite than that of even high quality gold.
The reddish hue is so elegant...
Pure IMHO, of course, but I am with the Sultan on that:-)

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2015, 08:19 AM

Suasa is either rose gold or pinchbeck. Both materials are called 'suasa' in Indonesia. When it is rose gold it is gold that has been alloyed with copper, when it is pincbeck it is copper that has been alloyed with zinc, which makes it a kind of brass.

I have a Balinese court keris of the highest quality that for years i thought had a suasa pendok, in fact it is rose gold of something around 19 carat. It looks like suasa, and it would undoubtedly be called suasa by an Indonesian, but actually it is pretty high carat gold.

Pure gold is too soft for any purpose other than to hold as bullion and store in a safe. The carat grade of jewellery varies over 9ct, 14ct, 18ct, 22ct.

Truly pure gold is known as:-

100 : six nines fine

24ct gold is known as 999 and is only three nines fine, but in normal understanding this 24ct, gold is regarded as pure gold, even though it is not.

I think gold of six nines fine has only been produced once, and that was some time in the 1950's by the Perth (Australia) mint.

Again I'm running on memory, but I think that in the USA any gold of less than 14ch purity cannot be claimed to be gold by the seller. This is the reason that a very large number of gold pocket watch cases are 14ct.

So when we talk about gold or suasa, what we're really talking about is a colour difference. That suasa pendok you picked up in last weekend's trash market might be 19ct gold, or it might be brass.

Maurice · 26th December 2015, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i've seen that info. Even if true, however, we certainly should not make the mistake of assuming that what might be true in Moro culture is also true in Jawa, Bali or other cultures of Indonesia. Since we are on the keris forum we should probably try to keep this discussion keris specific.

Yes but we are talking here about the talismanic function of suassa as a material, and not only on keris hilts or pendoks. Also suassa had been used on the magic "rings" and other Indonesian weapons.

But I agree we need to stay with facts, and not by assuming. Therefore it is worth to have this discussion, as this is a second source (though also Cato made failures ofcourse) which is talking about suassa more appreciated as gold.
A good friend forwarded me some other sources, which were telling the same in suassa, but I can't find it at the moment.

Maurice · 26th December 2015, 11:19 AM

I have put myself into the matter of Rumphius lately.
It is much more interesting as the small text Loedjoe is quoting at the start of this thread.
Rumphius was working by the VOC. This is very important.
VOC journals are most of the time very accurate, and not over exaggerated.
They sticked only to the facts, and also tested their findings if possible before writing it in journals to their superiors.
It was important to not exaggerate, as every VOC delegation needs to forward such a journal. If something seemed to be a mythe, they needed to research that again and that wasn't in favour of the first delegation who did the exaggeration and forwarded untruths to their superiors.

Further I was impressed by the Rumphius text and research he did on suassa.
He is writing about the different suassa types, contents of materials to make the suassa alloy, and all proven and tested by western VOC smiths. After that he wrote down his findings. So the research was very thoroughly!
Also there was a particular suassa alloy of different materials which they could not make, with the info obtained by native people. He also put that in his work, and that the natives probably helt something back in the info to him. He also put it that way in the text. That it had been checked, and it had been failed to make.
This all tells me that he was very accurate and not a man who only wrote something down to make a big book!

In such accurate work, he probably would write only down what he had been tested and was assure off, and not only what he had heard from saying by a single man.
I guess there could be a big truth in his very old work about suassa!
There is a good chance that, in the course of time, it changed and gold took over the place as the talismanic value of suassa had been gone to the natives by some dark unknown reason. And by stories passing on to their next generation, they forgot about the talismanic values of suassa. Later books than refer to gold as number one.
But I think it would be wise not only to stick to the latter books about gold in Indonesia, and also don't forget about Rumphius and to take the VOC traveller very serious, who had written down this suassa chapter very early, which he got at that time out of first hand. This was what natives told him about suassa around 1700's, before times that other books stated it as gold was most favorite.
He didn't had any earlier books to read about suassa, and with an "empty thought" he did his research and work.

I assume that nowadays, if something write a work about precious metals, would also read a lot of works, and got brainwashed that gold must be it from ancient times. Ruphius however was empty minded and did his own early research.

25th December 2015, 10:55 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Or perhaps, just perhaps, the quoted passage is simply incorrect. That does happen as i am sure you all know. I cannot say that is the case here with any assuredness, however, everything that i have ever read previously about gold, specifically in regards to Javanese culture, falls more in line with what Alan has said. I am away from my reference books at the moment, but i do have one that is specifically related to the use of gold in Javanese culture and i will check in with that when i return. I cannot say, however, that i can recall seeing much of any use of suasa on Javanese keris at all and find the idea that any Javanese Susuhunan or Sultan would prefer suasa to pure gold a bit of a strange one indeed. Last edited by David; 26th December 2015 at 12:30 AM.

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25th December 2015, 12:05 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,135	Somewhere in this Forum there is a conversation about Gold versus Suasa and one comment made was that pure Gold was not "good for a Muslim" and so Suasa was used instead. I believe that in the Koran or in the Hadith there are various comments about vain display and even an injunction not to drink from a Gold cup. I suspect the original passage above was a reflection of this idea.

26th December 2015, 01:43 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Cato in his Moro Swords states a similar idea, that suassa was preferred due to the effect of gold on men (making them weak). I suspect also that another reason is expense as well as color variation.

26th December 2015, 04:51 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	True enough. But to be honest, I also think that color of swassa is richer and more exquisite than that of even high quality gold. The reddish hue is so elegant... Pure IMHO, of course, but I am with the Sultan on that:-)

26th December 2015, 08:19 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Suasa is either rose gold or pinchbeck. Both materials are called 'suasa' in Indonesia. When it is rose gold it is gold that has been alloyed with copper, when it is pincbeck it is copper that has been alloyed with zinc, which makes it a kind of brass. I have a Balinese court keris of the highest quality that for years i thought had a suasa pendok, in fact it is rose gold of something around 19 carat. It looks like suasa, and it would undoubtedly be called suasa by an Indonesian, but actually it is pretty high carat gold. Pure gold is too soft for any purpose other than to hold as bullion and store in a safe. The carat grade of jewellery varies over 9ct, 14ct, 18ct, 22ct. Truly pure gold is known as:- 100 : six nines fine 24ct gold is known as 999 and is only three nines fine, but in normal understanding this 24ct, gold is regarded as pure gold, even though it is not. I think gold of six nines fine has only been produced once, and that was some time in the 1950's by the Perth (Australia) mint. Again I'm running on memory, but I think that in the USA any gold of less than 14ch purity cannot be claimed to be gold by the seller. This is the reason that a very large number of gold pocket watch cases are 14ct. So when we talk about gold or suasa, what we're really talking about is a colour difference. That suasa pendok you picked up in last weekend's trash market might be 19ct gold, or it might be brass.

26th December 2015, 11:19 AM	#9
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,462	I have put myself into the matter of Rumphius lately. It is much more interesting as the small text Loedjoe is quoting at the start of this thread. Rumphius was working by the VOC. This is very important. VOC journals are most of the time very accurate, and not over exaggerated. They sticked only to the facts, and also tested their findings if possible before writing it in journals to their superiors. It was important to not exaggerate, as every VOC delegation needs to forward such a journal. If something seemed to be a mythe, they needed to research that again and that wasn't in favour of the first delegation who did the exaggeration and forwarded untruths to their superiors. Further I was impressed by the Rumphius text and research he did on suassa. He is writing about the different suassa types, contents of materials to make the suassa alloy, and all proven and tested by western VOC smiths. After that he wrote down his findings. So the research was very thoroughly! Also there was a particular suassa alloy of different materials which they could not make, with the info obtained by native people. He also put that in his work, and that the natives probably helt something back in the info to him. He also put it that way in the text. That it had been checked, and it had been failed to make. This all tells me that he was very accurate and not a man who only wrote something down to make a big book! In such accurate work, he probably would write only down what he had been tested and was assure off, and not only what he had heard from saying by a single man. I guess there could be a big truth in his very old work about suassa! There is a good chance that, in the course of time, it changed and gold took over the place as the talismanic value of suassa had been gone to the natives by some dark unknown reason. And by stories passing on to their next generation, they forgot about the talismanic values of suassa. Later books than refer to gold as number one. But I think it would be wise not only to stick to the latter books about gold in Indonesia, and also don't forget about Rumphius and to take the VOC traveller very serious, who had written down this suassa chapter very early, which he got at that time out of first hand. This was what natives told him about suassa around 1700's, before times that other books stated it as gold was most favorite. He didn't had any earlier books to read about suassa, and with an "empty thought" he did his research and work. I assume that nowadays, if something write a work about precious metals, would also read a lot of works, and got brainwashed that gold must be it from ancient times. Ruphius however was empty minded and did his own early research.