Basket hilted swords

[E.B. Erickson]

When I saw Ulfberth's sword, it set off bells in my head - but where had I seen that before? Figured it out. Wood's book has one, and so does Mazansky.
Mazansky p.188 has a hilt just like the one in Ulfberth's photos. Differences: pommel is nicer on Ulfberth's, and the one in Mazansky has screws instead of rivets. Ulfbeth's also looks like the shield (Mazansky's terminology) has been modified.
I'd post a scan, but I don't have a scanner, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Mazansky notes a possible French connection (not the Gene Hackman version), with possible manufacture dates of late 17-early 1800s, but also notes that this remains to be proven.

I need to post the rest of my baskets in this thread.

--ElJay

[ulfberth]

Hi Eljay,

thank you for pointing this out, If someone could take a picture or a scan it would give an idea.
In the meanwhile I found a similar basket hilt in Museo delle Armi Antiche di San Marino .
This one has a blade with a blade with a double fuller but the pommel and the hilt are identical .

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Rex took a photo of page 188 (see attached) and certainly looks extremely similar. I agree with the view that his one is probably of French manufacture perhaps for a Scottish exile hence the unusual hilt configuration.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Hi Catey

Thanks for posting the picture of the Mazansky book, I think this is as close as it gets.
We have seen three almost identical hilts and in all three the guard fits on the base plate pierced and attached by either a riveted method or or secured by bolted nuts.
The one in the Italian museum does not have these bolts and seems riveted to.
I think we can conclude this is not a composite but the way this type of basket hilts were constructed.

Thanks all for you help!

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .

[ulfberth]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for you comment especially under the difficult circumstances.
I am very interested in the Jacobite symbols , there even seems to be a connection to 17th and 18th C Freemasonry , any comments or hidden knowledge that can be revealed would be most welcome.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys, this is the last of my Black watch pattern swords

Date: Circa 1750-70 (18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish Black Watch 42nd Highland Regiment
Overall Length: 96.8 cm (38.1 inches)
Blade length: 82.8 cm (32.6 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.5 cm (1.4 inches) fuller runs 63.9 cm (25.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 16 cm (6.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 12 cm (4.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Nil

Description
English Black Watch basket-hilted backsword for highland regiments (42nd Royal Highland Regiment), c1750-70. Straight single edged fullered blade 32” blade 82.8 cm. Overall Length 38.2“, 96.8 cm. Although unmarked the hilt pattern suggests the Maker to be Jeffrey’s of London. Regulation Jefferys hilt, panels pierced with triangular darted and circular openings, line engravings included in panel decoration. The three branches of the guard are riveted to a ring which fits around the truncated conical pommel with spherical button, leather grip wire missing.

General Remarks
Slight difference in Guard construction indicates this sword was probably supplied by Nathaniel Jefferys London. No maker, retailer or Military marks found.

When I compare this sword to my two others by Dury the guard is distinctly different. In referring to this as Black Watch I am really referring to the pattern, this sword could have been used by other regiments at the time.

Given the variation in quality I have seen in these swords I concur with others that it is likely they were manufactured either whole or in part by other cutlers beside Drury and Jeffries. All three in my collection have quite substantial and well-made guards, however I have seen others with guards that felt almost like tin as they were so light and poorly made.

References:
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS: BOOK OF Edged Weapons. Plate 4 pp209
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND Pp341
DARLING, Anthony D. SWORDS FOR THE HIGHLAND REGIMENTS 1757 - 1784 published by Andrew Moebray Inc pp13,
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 30.s, pp42 plate 243.S
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Auction Autumn 2001 9-10/10/2001 Lot 100

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .

Salaams Jim, In reference to your details about The French in terms of Basket Hilts...I note from Scotland (A New History) by Michael Lynch page 335 refers. Quote" Charles's expedition was financed by a combination of private venture capital largely put up by *Aeneas MacDonald. an expatriate Scot with a banking house in Paris, and credit borrowed on the security of the Sobieski Jewels, a legacy from his mother Clementina. It paid for the modest arsenal of 20 field pieces, 3,500 assorted guns, 2,400 broadswords, which was loaded on two ships berthed at Nantes in June 1745. More than half this arsenal and the 100 Marines aboard the Elizabeth failed to reach Scotland for they had to turn back after an encounter with an English Man o' War off the Lizard, and only the Du Teillay reached Arisaig on 3 August". Unquote.


This illustrates a conduit through which weapons were entering Scotland and moreover the potential for French and probably German swords being supplied. It throws into the mix broadsword variants from the entire European region and goes some way in showing the vast variety of weapons that even today we are confronted with.

*For more on the amazing story of Aeneas Macdonald see http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascaniu...20Archives.htm

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely excellent Ibrahiim!!! Thank you so much for that entry.
That is perfectly substantiated support for the volumes of arms with these expatriated Jacobites in France. I'm always amazed at your tenacity at finding these extremely important references online.!

All the best
Jim