Are these Bidri?

ALEX · 16th October 2015, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

Gavin Nugent · 16th October 2015, 11:40 AM

Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...X9QVb&dpr=1.75

Gavin

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 12:43 PM

Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s.

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

Kubur · 16th October 2015, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

Dear Harry,

I had the same problem in the past, with one or two objects.
Some comments were right, some were completely wrong.
It is a forum of connoisseurs, no more, but even specialists can be wrong.
Second point, why dissociate local users objects and travelers or tourists objects? Most of our objects are from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th c. There were few tourists and travellers, not like now.
It's clear that the craftmen who did these objects were very skilled and with a deep knowledge. They probably worked for both wealthy local elite and rich travellers. Or even the objects were produced to satisfy both local and travellers. No one can say! I just know that nowadays the techniques are lost or almost and objects for tourists are of a very low quality if not made in China!! My comments can be applied to daggers as Qajar axes and other objets from the end of the 19th c. The most important is your own feeling. It's not important if these daggers are from the mid-20th c.

Kind regards,
Kubur

harrywagner · 16th October 2015, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

ALEX · 16th October 2015, 05:47 PM

Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn.

Kubur · 16th October 2015, 06:07 PM

Alex I agree with you about litterature and books.
I dont agree with you about the term "to learn".
Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem.
Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum.
You shouldnt leave this forum.

ALEX · 16th October 2015, 07:16 PM

Kubur, I agree. It is ok to just enjoy and discuss the items, not everyone needs to learn or study them. But specific question was posted about age and quality, and this is what I commented on. Are we here to please each other and become a Facebook community with only "Like" option, or provide true and constructive feedback? I see this Forum is becoming FB-ish, so this is what "ticked" me. I apologize for being harsh, and also think Harry should not leave.

Sajen · 16th October 2015, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Dear Harry,

I really think that is the wrong way, sorry. Please don't leave this forum. So far I can judge it is Alex a member with a good knowledge about Indian weapons and he has only given his opinion about your both daggers. Show him why you disagree with his opinion.

Best regards,
Detlef

Miguel · 17th October 2015, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Hi Harry,
I have followed this thread with interest as I have a few pieces with similar decoration to yours and am amazed at how the discussion has ended. I really think that you have over reacted as there was nothing said by any of the participants, in my opinion, to provoke you into such a reaction. If it is not to late I would urge you to reconsider as I think by leaving the forum you will be the loser and for what?
Hoping that you will reconsider.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 17th October 2015, 06:59 PM

I have to agree with Miguel....nothing here to get uptight about...
Stu

harrywagner · 18th October 2015, 09:28 PM

I did not expect to be back here to write this, but what can I say. I love my wife. She's been away taking care of her Mother and returned today to find me in a funk. This thread has bothered me more than I thought possible and when I explained to her what was bothering me she reminded me that this was an opportunity to do some good. So I will try. I've not read what has elapsed since my last post. I'm done with that. I really only have one thing to say and that is this:

This is a hobby for me. It is supposed to be fun. I suspect that this site is more important to some members than just a hobby, and we should respect that. It seems to me that the continued success of this site, and any other public forum, is dependent upon attracting and retaining new members. We should try harder to play nice. It's important. Alex, I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone else here. Quite the opposite. I am in your debt.

Now I really am taking my ball and going home. Quitting is one of the few things I do really well and I would hate to screw that up.

Harry

ALEX · 19th October 2015, 11:14 AM

Harry, good to have you back! I look forward to more of your posts. This is a great place to exchange ideas and learn, as inevitably we all learn one way or another). There are many great people here, it is a hobby for most of us, and many share their joy, passion and knowledge. And arguing one’s point is a good part of it, as Detlef nicely mentioned earlier.
As RSword said, it is important to enjoy the items, and more so if you feel it belongs to your collection and fit your collecting taste. I must admit, I have similar daggers like yours, but miniatures. I got them 10+ years ago and I like them as decorations. It is great that you’re observing the details and comparing quality. you right these daggers are not made yesterday, but I do not think they are early 1900’s, although you see them being described as such on some commercial and auction sites. As RSword and Kubur mentioned, they are late 1900’s. and both made at the same time, perhaps a few years apart, but this is really insignificant in historical realm. The third example, the Jambiya, is a crude repro, it has surface application similar to applying paint via template, it is not coftgari. The blades cannot be wootz on such items, they are always simple manipulated (pattern weld, layered, etc) steel, with similar type of applied "cartouche". The scabbard decoration is never bidri. Bidri uses carved inlay to fill in silver. Coftgari is surface overlay. The technique is really the same since early ages, this is why you see “similar” coftgari in Paul’s book, but the forms have changed, that is important to notice! and these daggers hardly fit into “Islamic arms” category.
See you down the road...

16th October 2015, 05:47 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn. Last edited by ALEX; 16th October 2015 at 06:03 PM.

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16th October 2015, 11:40 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=i...X9QVb&dpr=1.75 Gavin

16th October 2015, 12:43 PM	#3
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s. I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again. Sincerely, Harry

16th October 2015, 06:07 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Alex I agree with you about litterature and books. I dont agree with you about the term "to learn". Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem. Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum. You shouldnt leave this forum.

16th October 2015, 07:16 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kubur, I agree. It is ok to just enjoy and discuss the items, not everyone needs to learn or study them. But specific question was posted about age and quality, and this is what I commented on. Are we here to please each other and become a Facebook community with only "Like" option, or provide true and constructive feedback? I see this Forum is becoming FB-ish, so this is what "ticked" me. I apologize for being harsh, and also think Harry should not leave.

17th October 2015, 06:59 PM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	I have to agree with Miguel....nothing here to get uptight about... Stu

18th October 2015, 09:28 PM	#12
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	I did not expect to be back here to write this, but what can I say. I love my wife. She's been away taking care of her Mother and returned today to find me in a funk. This thread has bothered me more than I thought possible and when I explained to her what was bothering me she reminded me that this was an opportunity to do some good. So I will try. I've not read what has elapsed since my last post. I'm done with that. I really only have one thing to say and that is this: This is a hobby for me. It is supposed to be fun. I suspect that this site is more important to some members than just a hobby, and we should respect that. It seems to me that the continued success of this site, and any other public forum, is dependent upon attracting and retaining new members. We should try harder to play nice. It's important. Alex, I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone else here. Quite the opposite. I am in your debt. Now I really am taking my ball and going home. Quitting is one of the few things I do really well and I would hate to screw that up. Harry

19th October 2015, 11:14 AM	#13
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Harry, good to have you back! I look forward to more of your posts. This is a great place to exchange ideas and learn, as inevitably we all learn one way or another). There are many great people here, it is a hobby for most of us, and many share their joy, passion and knowledge. And arguing one’s point is a good part of it, as Detlef nicely mentioned earlier. As RSword said, it is important to enjoy the items, and more so if you feel it belongs to your collection and fit your collecting taste. I must admit, I have similar daggers like yours, but miniatures. I got them 10+ years ago and I like them as decorations. It is great that you’re observing the details and comparing quality. you right these daggers are not made yesterday, but I do not think they are early 1900’s, although you see them being described as such on some commercial and auction sites. As RSword and Kubur mentioned, they are late 1900’s. and both made at the same time, perhaps a few years apart, but this is really insignificant in historical realm. The third example, the Jambiya, is a crude repro, it has surface application similar to applying paint via template, it is not coftgari. The blades cannot be wootz on such items, they are always simple manipulated (pattern weld, layered, etc) steel, with similar type of applied "cartouche". The scabbard decoration is never bidri. Bidri uses carved inlay to fill in silver. Coftgari is surface overlay. The technique is really the same since early ages, this is why you see “similar” coftgari in Paul’s book, but the forms have changed, that is important to notice! and these daggers hardly fit into “Islamic arms” category. See you down the road...