African knights - African armour collection thread

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, there is a difference between what people write and being able to prove it. The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not. As for the Wilkinson catelog from the 1860s, do you have a link to it? The only catelog from Wilkinson that I am aware of that describes what we are looking for is a 1851 exhibition catelog were they do describe mail hauberks and gauntlets, but they only mention their use in India, nothing about Egypt, no mention of split links either. It also mentions bridles, you can not control your horse if the bridle is cut. Ottoman-uniforms does not suppy any real proof in the way of verifiable sources that I can fins showing Wilkinson was involved in making either the hauberk or the helmets.

The book that mentions Wilkinson swords involvement in mail hauberk production has been misquoted, in this book "Khartoum campaign, 1898: or the re-conquest of the Soudan By Bennet Burleigh" 1899, the writer says that it is the helmets that were made by Wilkinson, not the mail hauberks. Please carefully read the quote from the book that I have provided below.
"Coats of chain-mail old and new, and steel helmets. Most of the latter are quite modern, being part of the 600 supplied by a London firm of sword makers-Wklkinson & Co. Pall Mall." Notice it reads latter, which would refer to the helmets I believe since the hauberks are mentioned before the the helmets.

All of the mentions in later books and web sites etc seem to be using the quote from this book to back up their claims that Wilkinson had anything to do with the mail hauberls purchased in England for the Khedives forces. If you or anyone else has any additional proof I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Below I have provided the quote directly from the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the book I mention and a photo of what I believe to be one of the later made 1880s split link key chain mail hauberks next to a drawing of Khedive soldiers, 1880s, wearing the same hauberks.

It seems funny that in the many years between the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the purchase by Egypt of 600 to 800 mail hauberks in the 1880s (30 years) there are no images from Wilkinson of these hauberks and no additional references to them (that I can find). Something else that I find amazing is that so far no photos of any of the Khedives forces wearing armor has surfaced, you would think with all of the drawings and descriptions someone would have taken a picture, I am still waiting for one to turn up.

Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless. It operates like a huge search engine and encyclopedia and as you know corrections are invited. Broadly speaking we take the information from such libraries and sift it ...model it...and present it so that it then passes before our very eyes and into Library...where it still may be scrutinized ...I think we avoid using such terminology as ..."It is completely useless"...etc. etc. whereas I am entirely in support of correcting such mistakes as have already appeared even in well accepted authors works down the ages.

It remains, however, important to follow and expose details as we discover them and it has always been my technique to present what I find in support of threads by looking into every possibility to hand... which includes Forum Library, books and the web...thus occasionally Wikepedia (which I find excellent) and even Pinterest.

I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...

Here is a classic thread full of interest in an area otherwise hardly exposed before... but now with a bright Forum light shining on it !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless.
I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...

Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format.

The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...21cfbb667c.png

[estcrh]

AFRICAN KNIGHTS:The Armies of Sokoto, Bornu and Bagirmi in the 19th Century by Conrad Cairns, 2006, covers the period that began with the Sokoto jihad in 1804 and ended with the extinction of the Savannah states by the European powers in the 20th c, provides a brief history of the three states and examines the arms, equipment and methods of warfare used by their armoured 'knights' and infantry, sections on horses, artillery, flags, fortifications, clothing, with photographs and engravings.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...21cfbb667c.png

Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.

It is interesting that there are actually few accounts of the Hicks expedition not least because there were few people left alive to recount the details because it was almost totally annihilated.

I use Pinterest occasionally as it can be seen that the images are excellent. Unfortunately their website insists that users join another media site to access and frankly it puts me off as I consider it an invasion of privacy...but certainly it is worth considering ..though as I say ...I am very happy using a broad range of research concepts and since books on the subject are quite difficult to get here the web fills in as second best....We are after all ...it should be remembered ...also a web based information retrieval cell...

I will certainly look in at your site. Meanwhile good luck with the African Armour details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.

Ibrahiim, actually Wikipedia is NOT vindicated at all. I do not mind being wrong but in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I have directly saved the Wikipedia text that mentions Wilkinson and mail, and the references indicated, #19. "Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886. #20. Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd. p. 41. #21. Google Books Iron Men

The first reference is a newspaper article, which according to Wikipedias standareds for valid references is not a valid reference. In most cases facts that come from websites, newspapers, self published books are not usable as reliable references.

Anyway try finding the article mentioned ("Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886.), I can not find a mention of it anywere except in reference to the Wikipedia article, if the reference can not be found what use is it? So an other useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The next reference is Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd., again I have looked for this catelog and I can not find it, so another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The third reference is a modern book, Google Books Iron Men, there is a link to a book called Khedive Ismail's Army, John P. Dunn, 2004. This book does not mention Wilkinson sword at all as far as I can tell, it mentions "zirhagi" (iron men) which is another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

As for the references go, ottoman-uniforms.com does a great job and I give a lot of credit to Dr Flaherty, but it is a work in progress, images and text change from time to time, information is added and removed, sometimes links die as well.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A close up of the cloth armour; From Pinterest; Sudanese quilted armor. Armor for horse and rider displayed in the British Museum were captured from the army of Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad ibn ‘Abd Allah (Battle of Omdurman,1898), cotton stuffed with kapok, loosely quilted horizontally and firmly quilted vertically. L:134 cm, W:131 cm, suggesting the sleeves are probably 3/4 length. the long length and high central vent is consistent with a cavalryman’s armor.
The small picture showing how best to get out of ones armoured shirt...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Occasionally I have to write to myself !... I was reviewing the few publications on things about African Armour and discovered a book by Christopher Spring curator at the British Museum...see below.

One account from a reader indicates...Quote" AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOUR not only talk about the weapons, but it also provides many excellent historical accounts of the weapons in use throughout history. It was fascinating to learn that African weapons were not restricted to just spears and hide shields like many may believe today, but they also had as wide a variety of weapons as could be found anywhere in the world, complete with swords, bows, cavalry, and even armor. This is a good book to read for not only weapons enthusiasts, but also history buffs". Unquote.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Left to right, Albanian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Kurd (Cavalry), Sudanese Regular, Bosnian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Syrian Bashi Bazouk, Egyptian Cuirssier, in Shirt of Mail, with Pot Helmet and LInked Hood Similar to that Worn by the Saracens of Saladia. Greek Bashi Bazouk from the Turkish Provences, Fella or Regular Egyptian Infantryman, Segir of the Dromedary (camel) Scouting Corps, and Segir or Arab from the Country between Shendy and Dongala.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Salaams estcrh, I have no problem with this at all... Occasionally different people use different techniques to open these Pandoras box problems... Most people have trouble following the rapid twists and turns of a web that is crashing along at exponential rates of knowledge/detail intake. The picture you show of the Hicks soldiers is remarkable and probably one of those sketches for the London Times...Probably by the time that report was printed ...most of that huge expedition were dead....!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.