Indian Mace

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by estcrh

What looks smooth now may have been covered at one time.

Perfectly true.

It was the combination of a smooth grip coupled with the profusion and length of the spikes as previously mentioned, which make me agree the weapon was impractical.

I am happy to be educated on such things though...

[kronckew]

it indeed may have had a leather grip between the bulbous bits and even a velvet covered shaft.

i don't think having a more secure grip would make it any more practical, in fact i'd bet having it slip out of your hand after getting stuck in the target would be an advantage rather than pulling you along with it because you didn't lose your grip soon enough.

even if you used it and didn't lose it (or your own life) it would be rather difficult to clean.

most islamic & indopersian maces were basically ovoids or cylinders without flanges or spikes to get caught in clothing or armour (or flesh). the most extreme maybe the head shaped ones, or the flat sided hex/octa-gonal types.

even european spiked and flanged maces the pointy bits were normally anything but acute so they would be unlikely to get stuck. the more extreme decorative ones being just that, decorative.

[Edward F]

It looks to me like the real thing although realy need pictures of different areas of the weapon .Most likely the weapon was carried by foot soldier not on horse back Looks to me like a two handed weapon no need to have two bulbas points for one handed use.I agree not a great weapon to use. But its weapon.

[ward]

19th century sounds about right I have seen a number of them. It is a valid piece from that culture. Remember the rich got armor peasants were on there own.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kronckew

most islamic & indopersian maces were basically ovoids or cylinders without flanges or spikes to get caught in clothing or armour (or flesh). the most extreme maybe the head shaped ones, or the flat sided hex/octa-gonal types.

I have to disagree with you, take a look at this link and see how many flanged Indo-Persian maces you see.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...persian-maces/

[estcrh]

How maces like this were used, who used them and when is clearly up for debate. There are quite a few examples, no matter what, you have to admit that they are an aggressive looking weapon, maybe thats the point of them.

[estcrh]

Here is a reference to Indian spiked maces from "Weapon: A Visual History of Arms and Armor", Oct 2, 2006. I have no idea were this info came from originally.

Spiked mace. "The grip of the spikes prevented curved armor from deflecting blows."


Another reference from "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India", E. Jaiwant Paul, 2005.

"The spiked mace was particularly effective against the helmet."

[trajan]

multi spike maces with khanda hilts

[trajan]

2 ball hilt maces..note the larger size as compared to example mace.

[Emanuel]

With regards to the flanged maces, while I agree that they focus the force of the impacts into a smaller point of contact, the fancy spiral ones have very thin flanges. They may be sharpened to an edge, but they are flimsy, therefore not at all suited against armour or anything but the softest targets.

Thick un-sharpened flanges are more effective than, thin sharp ones.

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is a reference to Indian spiked maces from "Weapon: A Visual History of Arms and Armor", Oct 2, 2006. I have no idea were this info came from originally.
...

"The spiked mace was particularly effective against the helmet."

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I have to disagree with you, take a look at this link and see how many flanged Indo-Persian maces you see.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...persian-maces/

the flanged maces there looked like european style ones they may have copied. the persians were in contact with the byzantines and crusaders and could have captured ones they copied. the flanges again have very wide angle 'points' to avoid getting stuck while still concentrating the force when hitting armour.

your later post also shows a nice ball mace with quite short spikes, again fine for concentrating the force and preventing skidding on plate armour, while being less likely to get stuck in cloth or mail. a lot of the really spiky maces shown have rather bent spikes which would degrade their performance.

another note, a lance is a primary weapon used mostly in a shoulder to shoulder charge, and is really designed to break or be dropped after the initial shock & penetration of your opponent, whereupon they would revert to a secondary weapon, an estoc or sabre, or maybe just a sabre. a lance is a poor weapon if you are in the melee and within sabre range of your opponent who is past your point. lancers in general in later years were lightly armed reconaissance and persuit units, good for spearing a broken and fleeing enemy.

as commented by a heavy cavalryman in a military tv series, 'once you get past the point, it's like killing rabbits'.

the horned devil maces are as noted earlier, light and generally considered qajar parade pieces. 19c maces were well past their sell-by date.

i tend to go by occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually, but not always, the best. i remain open to persuasion. whacking a ballistic gel dummy dressed in indian style mail & plate, or padded cloth armour ala mythbusters might be informative experimental archaeology.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kronckew

19c maces were well past their sell-by date.

Were they? While that may be true in Europe for the most part with the exception of WWI trench maces the same can not be said for India were many armed conflicts are documented during the 1800s between various Indian factions and between Indians and Europeans. In addition Indian soldiers worked for the British Military in various conflicts outside of India were they brought their native weapons with them.

Here are some of the 19th century Indian conflicts.

1803–1805 Second Anglo-Maratha War
1814–1816 Anglo-Gorkha war
1817–1818 Third Anglo-Maratha War
1845-1846 First Anglo-Sikh War
1848-1849 Second Anglo-Sikh War
1850 The Kond tribe revolted in Orissa under leadership of chief Bisoi.
1855 The 'Great Rebellion'by the Santal community against the British in Eastern India
1857–58 Indian Mutany also called Sepoy Mutiny, unsuccessful rebellion against British rule, started in Meerut by Indian troops (sepoys) in the service of the British East India Company.
1857-1858 The Bhil revolted again under the leadership of Bhagoji Naik and Kajar Singh.
1860 The Lushai tribal people raided the then British Tripura and killed 186 British subjects.
1860-1862 The Synteng tribalaintia Hills district|Jaintia Hills in North-East India.
1861 The Juang tribal community revolted in Orissa.
1862 The Koya tribal community revolted in Andhra against tribal landlords called 'Muttader' in tribal dialect.
1863 Ambela Campaign, one of numerous expeditions led by British forces in the border area between the Emirate of Afghanistan and the Punjab Province of British India.
1864-1865 Bhutan War, fought between British India and Bhutan.
1869-1870 The Santal people revolted at Dhanbad in Eastern India against a local monarch.The British mediated to settle dispute.
1879-1880 Second Anglo-Afghan War, fought between the United Kingdom and the Emirate of Afghanistan, when the latter was ruled by Sher Ali Khan of the Barakzai dynasty, the son of former Emir Dost Mohammad Khan. This was the second time British India invaded Afghanistan.
1879 The Naga tribal people revolted in North-Eastern India.
1880 The Koya revolted again at Malkangiri in Orissa under leadership of Tammandora.
1883 The Sentinelese tribal people of Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Indian Ocean attacked the British.
1887 Third Anglo-Burmese War, also known as the Third Burma War, Following the war, Burma came under the rule of the British Raj as a province of India.
1888 Hazara Expedition, also known as the Black Mountain Expedition or the First Hazara Expedition, was a military campaign by the British against the tribes of Kala Dhaka (then known as the Black Mountains of Hazara) in the Hazara region of what is now Pakistan.
1888 Sikkim Expedition, British military expedition to expel Tibetan forces from Sikkim in present day north east India. The roots of the conflict lay in British-Tibetan competition for sovereignty over Sikkim.
1889 The mass agitation by the Munda against the British in Eastern India.
1891 Hunza-Nagar Campaign, fought in 1891 by troops of the British Raj against the princely states of Hunza and Nagar in the Gilgit Agency (now part of the Gilgit-Baltistan of Pakistan). It is known in Pakistan as the "Anglo-Brusho War".
1891 The tribals of North-East India revolted against the British under leadership of Tikendraji Singh.
1892 The Lushei people revolted against the British repeatedly.
1895 Chitral Expedition, a military expedition in 1895 sent by the British authorities to relieve the fort at Chitral which was under siege after a local coup.
1895 The famous revolt by the Munda tribal community under leadership of Birsa Munda.Later,Birsa was arrested.
1897 Siege of Malakand, Saidullah, a Pashtun fakir led an army of at least 10,000 against the British garrison.
1897–98 Mohmand campaign, British military campaign against the Mohmands, a Pashtun tribe who inhabit the hilly country to the north-west of Peshawar, in the North-West Frontier Province of India, now Pakistan. British punitive expeditions had been sent against the Mohmands in 1851-1852, 1854, 1864, 1879, 1880, but the principal operations were those of 1897-1898.
1897 Tochi Expedition, a punitive visit by Anglo-Indian troops to the Tochi Valley in 1897 to put down a rebellion there. The rebellion started with an attack by the Madda Khel section of the Waziris in June 1897.
1897–1898 Tirah Campaign, an Indian frontier war. Tirah is a mountainous tract of country in what is now a federally administered tribal area of Pakistan.