Hand made sword, wondering about origin

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2015, 10:36 PM

Hi Ken,
While certainly not likely to apply here, by analogy, sometimes strangely incongruent items turn up in odd contexts. One example some time back was a broadsword which turned up in Ontario, Canada, and unbelievably was taken for a sword from the crusades, or of the period at least. This led to the quite expected business of possible early visitation from Europe, Vikings and all sorts of speculation.
Naturally, as reason prevailed, research revealed the sword was a Sudanese kaskara, brought back from those campaigns by a British soldier who had moved to Canada shortly thereafter.

Then there was the case of the photo of a Sioux Chief in 1880s with a Japanese katana hanging on the wall behind him!

These oddities are many, and make for truly interesting investigation and great stories!

Each weapon has its own, and is unique for it!

All the best,
Jim

Ken Maddock · 3rd August 2015, 10:32 AM

Hi
Please find attached more images of blade
A good bit of de lamination or miss forging which I hope you can see
Also I hope you can see how it is completely flat on one side
shaping down to sharp edge only on one side with central spine in middle
I will do a sketch if you think it might help
Regards
Ken

Ian · 3rd August 2015, 04:39 PM

Ken:

Your blade reminds me of another Spanish colonial sword that I posted several years ago here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2068 and before that here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001235.html.

That sword had a typical Spanish D-guard with a tang peened over the end of the guard. It's Spanish origin was confirmed by an inscription, Recuerdo Republicano, at forte. The blade of that sword was also flat on one side and peaked on the other to create a triangular cross sectional profile. I think we concluded that it was probably from the Philippines, but perhaps Mexico or elsewhere in the former Spanish colonies where independence from Spain had been sought.

Why a Spanish colonial sword would end up in the wall of an old Irish house is an intriguing question. One could probably write an interesting novel about that! I'm a fan of historical fiction.

Ian.

Rick · 3rd August 2015, 04:52 PM

Completely flat on one side . That's where I had questions about origin . One flat side would argue more for a Philippine origin . Still, a strange place for something Philippine to show up .

Of course, we can't discount the possibility it belonged to one of Gracie O'Malley's crew .

Ken Maddock · 3rd August 2015, 09:04 PM

Hi
I can see the Philippine influence in the link alright.
Spanish Armada was 1588, so I guess that rules out direct Spanish link

I am going to send images to the 1798 museum and see if they can shed any light on hand made swords from that period

I may never find out though and yes Rick I wish we could link it to the famous irish pirate

Would anyone hazard a guess on age of the sword

Your time spent commenting is much appreciated

Regards
Ken

Robert · 4th August 2015, 12:38 AM

Hello Ken, I totally agree with Jose's assessment, I also believe this to be a Filipino sword that was most likely made in the late 1890's to early 20th century on Luzon.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 4th August 2015, 06:56 AM

If this is a Philippine revolutionary sword, then the period 1895-1901 would probably be most likely for its manufacture and use.

The Katipuneros were getting seriously organized and armed in 1895-1896, with the Philippine revolution breaking out in August, 1896. The defeat of Spain in 1898 by US and Filipino forces led to the declaration of the First Philippine Republic by Emilio Aguinaldo, which in turn led to a protracted conflict with the US. The First Republic ended on March 23, 1901 when Aguinaldo was defeated and surrendered to American forces.

Ian

3rd August 2015, 10:32 AM	#2
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Please find attached more images of blade A good bit of de lamination or miss forging which I hope you can see Also I hope you can see how it is completely flat on one side shaping down to sharp edge only on one side with central spine in middle I will do a sketch if you think it might help Regards Ken Attached Images

3rd August 2015, 04:39 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	Ken: Your blade reminds me of another Spanish colonial sword that I posted several years ago here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2068 and before that here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001235.html. That sword had a typical Spanish D-guard with a tang peened over the end of the guard. It's Spanish origin was confirmed by an inscription, Recuerdo Republicano, at forte. The blade of that sword was also flat on one side and peaked on the other to create a triangular cross sectional profile. I think we concluded that it was probably from the Philippines, but perhaps Mexico or elsewhere in the former Spanish colonies where independence from Spain had been sought. Why a Spanish colonial sword would end up in the wall of an old Irish house is an intriguing question. One could probably write an interesting novel about that! I'm a fan of historical fiction. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 3rd August 2015 at 04:49 PM.

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2nd August 2015, 10:36 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Hi Ken, While certainly not likely to apply here, by analogy, sometimes strangely incongruent items turn up in odd contexts. One example some time back was a broadsword which turned up in Ontario, Canada, and unbelievably was taken for a sword from the crusades, or of the period at least. This led to the quite expected business of possible early visitation from Europe, Vikings and all sorts of speculation. Naturally, as reason prevailed, research revealed the sword was a Sudanese kaskara, brought back from those campaigns by a British soldier who had moved to Canada shortly thereafter. Then there was the case of the photo of a Sioux Chief in 1880s with a Japanese katana hanging on the wall behind him! These oddities are many, and make for truly interesting investigation and great stories! Each weapon has its own, and is unique for it! All the best, Jim

3rd August 2015, 04:52 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Completely flat on one side . That's where I had questions about origin . One flat side would argue more for a Philippine origin . Still, a strange place for something Philippine to show up . Of course, we can't discount the possibility it belonged to one of Gracie O'Malley's crew .

3rd August 2015, 09:04 PM	#5
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi I can see the Philippine influence in the link alright. Spanish Armada was 1588, so I guess that rules out direct Spanish link I am going to send images to the 1798 museum and see if they can shed any light on hand made swords from that period I may never find out though and yes Rick I wish we could link it to the famous irish pirate Would anyone hazard a guess on age of the sword Your time spent commenting is much appreciated Regards Ken

4th August 2015, 12:38 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ken, I totally agree with Jose's assessment, I also believe this to be a Filipino sword that was most likely made in the late 1890's to early 20th century on Luzon. Best, Robert

4th August 2015, 06:56 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,363	If this is a Philippine revolutionary sword, then the period 1895-1901 would probably be most likely for its manufacture and use. The Katipuneros were getting seriously organized and armed in 1895-1896, with the Philippine revolution breaking out in August, 1896. The defeat of Spain in 1898 by US and Filipino forces led to the declaration of the First Philippine Republic by Emilio Aguinaldo, which in turn led to a protracted conflict with the US. The First Republic ended on March 23, 1901 when Aguinaldo was defeated and surrendered to American forces. Ian