Pirate swords and weapons

Rick · 1st August 2015, 10:24 PM

We believe what we want to believe Jim .

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626

Sometimes a big wind is just that .

kronckew · 1st August 2015, 11:26 PM

oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this:

how much does pirate corn cost?

a buccaneer.

i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now.

feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

Rick · 1st August 2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this:

how much does pirate corn cost?

a buccaneer.

i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now.

feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

Hey, I've heard that one and that's what it actually costs here in Pyrat Country .

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2015, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

We believe what we want to believe Jim .

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626

Sometimes a big wind is just that .

Yup! Kinda my way of thinking.

Rick · 2nd August 2015, 01:12 AM

Yes, Jim .
Private funding means Investors .

This reminds me of the fellow that swore there was a freighter full of Platinum sunk off the Cape during the War Years .
He was in the News this Spring .
Uh oh !
No Platinum ...

He had 'Private Funding' too .
I hear those individuals are not at all happy .

Rainmakers .

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2015, 04:45 AM

Very true Rick,
If you have followed the unbelievable 'Oak Island' uh, mysteries (?) this is a prime example of how far back these kinds of schemes go. Much of the now antiquated structuring and curious symbols etc are the remnants of earlier 'ventures' (usually syndicated) as well as Masonic oriented 'pranks', so the entire area is quite compromised as far as actual archaeological context.

I find the 'lead ballast' claims by this organization rather questionable, and am still looking into more on the nature of these ingots. While I know most people do indeed believe what they want, and especially if its in the news or on TV, I choose to research further without express conclusions either way.

The whole 'Captain Kidd' enterprise has really become a fascinating adventure in itself, and I have been reading through books on these 'ventures' which definitely do fall into the schemes category.

Mr. Clifford's outstanding work on so many historically key wrecks to me does put him in my opinion in a quite different league. Actually I was quite surprised that he was NOT considered a proper archaeologist!

Kronckew, that 'corny' joke was a hoot!! Reminds me of the goofy jokes my youngest grandson and I would come up with when he was about 8 (he's in the Marines now). They were true 'groaners' and we still laugh about 'em.

To DASHIELL VANDOO

, another idea for your plausible plot.....what if while this merry band of pirates, as the were looting the Capt Kidd ship in preparation to be scuttled......perhaps one stashed the ingot of silver in the hold with intents to return to claim it later? much in line with your other scenario.
I' m not sure these guys had the means to fabricate fake lead bars in these places, nor the time or inclination to go to that trouble. Melting down lead for shot is a lot different that smelting an ingot of this size!

Rick · 2nd August 2015, 05:52 AM

I expect it's a real lead bar .
Keep digging though .

These particular Investors won, as did Mel's .
Or did they ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America

kronckew · 2nd August 2015, 08:54 AM

i was just reading recently about, i think it was denmark, sending all their gold reserves to canada via ship to keep it out of german hands in ww2. it was sunk by a u-boat.

lots of gold just waiting out there on the ol' briney wet thing.

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2015, 06:20 AM

As I mentioned, I always tend to search further, and in this case, as much as reluctant to say so, the true nature of this ingot is indeed suspect.

Kidd was in Isle St.Marie in 1699, at this point vs. his first 'pirate' prey, Capt Culliford. Unfortunately Kidds three ships were in terrible shape, the "Adventure Galley"; The Quedah Merchant (a captured Indian merchant vessel) and the "Rouparelle" (also captured, renamed 'November').
Many of Kidds men basically began to mutiny and go to the 'pirate' side, from there things get hazy.

Some say Culliford sank 'November' and left Kidd after stripping the other two ships of materials. What seems odd is that the 'treasure' held on the Quedah Merchant was not taken.
Kidd, took everything remaining off the now nearly sinking 'Adventure Galley' and put aboard the Quedah Merchant to head for New York.

It remains unclear which of the two ships, 'Rouparelle' or 'Adventure Galley' was burned or sunk, but whatever the case, they never left Isle St. Marie.

The 'treasure' on the Quedah Merchant consisted of silver and gold, presumably of both bullion and coin, and some rich textiles, but these were of Indian extraction, so presumably any bullion would most likely have been East India Company.

Which begs the question, 'why would an abnormally heavy silver ingot from Potosi (Bolivia) be found in what is believed to be the remains of the Kidd ship (either of the two abandoned there) . While Kidd may have had plunder from the Indian vessel(s), he had not accessed Spanish vessels (as far as I can find) in these waters .

In looking through information on Spanish silver ingot markings and detail from 17th century and Potosi (Bolivia) in particular, the markings on the Clifford ingot seem somewhat in the same fashion with initials, but lack the other key stamps and marks that characterize Potosi bars. Especially notable is the absence of the assayers 'bite', a scoop taken out by the assayer for testing (and exclusively a practice used at Potosi), with these findings always stamped in the bar along with date and bar number.

In looking into detail on the lead ballast ingots used in ships in these times, it does seem that they were made in these heavy weights ( large pigs) and some smaller, with the shape rather 'boat like' and often with convex facings. They often used stamped markings, initials and dates, but in far less frequency and without any of the often profuse detail of the silver bars of Spain or others presumably .

Also notable is the fact that this is a single bar, and ballast rubble seems to be in mounds in mass, especially in shallow water where a ship simply sank or foundered as careened....or again, was burned. In deep water wrecks the ballast or other contents may be strewn over an area as the ship comes apart and descends.

Interesting research, but would have preferred to find more positive evidence FOR Mr. Clifford's case. Still, I very much look forward to rebuttal's from his group, as mine is simply from various published material, and certainly limited in comparison to his experience and professional expertise.

I still wonder if Vandoo had something there with the silver coated lead ingot idea. Perhaps there was clandestine 'salting ' of these sites, as Mr Clifford has been searching them since 2000. In publications in 2002 and others, nothing had been found but a number of sundry items like bottles etc. which could be debris off any number of the many vessels in this burgeoning pirate haven of those times . As Rick mentioned, the Captain Kidd enterprise like many treasure hunt schemes knows few bounds, and it seems quite possible this might have been a snare placed in Mr. Cliffords corner, if the claims against this artifact/item are true.

1st August 2015, 10:24 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	A Good Yarn We believe what we want to believe Jim . http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626 Sometimes a big wind is just that .

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1st August 2015, 11:26 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this: how much does pirate corn cost? a buccaneer. i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now. feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

2nd August 2015, 01:12 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Yes, Jim . Private funding means Investors . This reminds me of the fellow that swore there was a freighter full of Platinum sunk off the Cape during the War Years . He was in the News this Spring . Uh oh ! No Platinum ... He had 'Private Funding' too . I hear those individuals are not at all happy . Rainmakers .

2nd August 2015, 04:45 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Very true Rick, If you have followed the unbelievable 'Oak Island' uh, mysteries (?) this is a prime example of how far back these kinds of schemes go. Much of the now antiquated structuring and curious symbols etc are the remnants of earlier 'ventures' (usually syndicated) as well as Masonic oriented 'pranks', so the entire area is quite compromised as far as actual archaeological context. I find the 'lead ballast' claims by this organization rather questionable, and am still looking into more on the nature of these ingots. While I know most people do indeed believe what they want, and especially if its in the news or on TV, I choose to research further without express conclusions either way. The whole 'Captain Kidd' enterprise has really become a fascinating adventure in itself, and I have been reading through books on these 'ventures' which definitely do fall into the schemes category. Mr. Clifford's outstanding work on so many historically key wrecks to me does put him in my opinion in a quite different league. Actually I was quite surprised that he was NOT considered a proper archaeologist! Kronckew, that 'corny' joke was a hoot!! Reminds me of the goofy jokes my youngest grandson and I would come up with when he was about 8 (he's in the Marines now). They were true 'groaners' and we still laugh about 'em. To DASHIELL VANDOO , another idea for your plausible plot.....what if while this merry band of pirates, as the were looting the Capt Kidd ship in preparation to be scuttled......perhaps one stashed the ingot of silver in the hold with intents to return to claim it later? much in line with your other scenario. I' m not sure these guys had the means to fabricate fake lead bars in these places, nor the time or inclination to go to that trouble. Melting down lead for shot is a lot different that smelting an ingot of this size!

2nd August 2015, 05:52 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I expect it's a real lead bar . Keep digging though . These particular Investors won, as did Mel's . Or did they ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America

2nd August 2015, 08:54 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i was just reading recently about, i think it was denmark, sending all their gold reserves to canada via ship to keep it out of german hands in ww2. it was sunk by a u-boat. lots of gold just waiting out there on the ol' briney wet thing.

3rd August 2015, 06:20 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	As I mentioned, I always tend to search further, and in this case, as much as reluctant to say so, the true nature of this ingot is indeed suspect. Kidd was in Isle St.Marie in 1699, at this point vs. his first 'pirate' prey, Capt Culliford. Unfortunately Kidds three ships were in terrible shape, the "Adventure Galley"; The Quedah Merchant (a captured Indian merchant vessel) and the "Rouparelle" (also captured, renamed 'November'). Many of Kidds men basically began to mutiny and go to the 'pirate' side, from there things get hazy. Some say Culliford sank 'November' and left Kidd after stripping the other two ships of materials. What seems odd is that the 'treasure' held on the Quedah Merchant was not taken. Kidd, took everything remaining off the now nearly sinking 'Adventure Galley' and put aboard the Quedah Merchant to head for New York. It remains unclear which of the two ships, 'Rouparelle' or 'Adventure Galley' was burned or sunk, but whatever the case, they never left Isle St. Marie. The 'treasure' on the Quedah Merchant consisted of silver and gold, presumably of both bullion and coin, and some rich textiles, but these were of Indian extraction, so presumably any bullion would most likely have been East India Company. Which begs the question, 'why would an abnormally heavy silver ingot from Potosi (Bolivia) be found in what is believed to be the remains of the Kidd ship (either of the two abandoned there) . While Kidd may have had plunder from the Indian vessel(s), he had not accessed Spanish vessels (as far as I can find) in these waters . In looking through information on Spanish silver ingot markings and detail from 17th century and Potosi (Bolivia) in particular, the markings on the Clifford ingot seem somewhat in the same fashion with initials, but lack the other key stamps and marks that characterize Potosi bars. Especially notable is the absence of the assayers 'bite', a scoop taken out by the assayer for testing (and exclusively a practice used at Potosi), with these findings always stamped in the bar along with date and bar number. In looking into detail on the lead ballast ingots used in ships in these times, it does seem that they were made in these heavy weights ( large pigs) and some smaller, with the shape rather 'boat like' and often with convex facings. They often used stamped markings, initials and dates, but in far less frequency and without any of the often profuse detail of the silver bars of Spain or others presumably . Also notable is the fact that this is a single bar, and ballast rubble seems to be in mounds in mass, especially in shallow water where a ship simply sank or foundered as careened....or again, was burned. In deep water wrecks the ballast or other contents may be strewn over an area as the ship comes apart and descends. Interesting research, but would have preferred to find more positive evidence FOR Mr. Clifford's case. Still, I very much look forward to rebuttal's from his group, as mine is simply from various published material, and certainly limited in comparison to his experience and professional expertise. I still wonder if Vandoo had something there with the silver coated lead ingot idea. Perhaps there was clandestine 'salting ' of these sites, as Mr Clifford has been searching them since 2000. In publications in 2002 and others, nothing had been found but a number of sundry items like bottles etc. which could be debris off any number of the many vessels in this burgeoning pirate haven of those times . As Rick mentioned, the Captain Kidd enterprise like many treasure hunt schemes knows few bounds, and it seems quite possible this might have been a snare placed in Mr. Cliffords corner, if the claims against this artifact/item are true.