Exceptional Algerian Long Gun

thinreadline · 30th June 2015, 07:46 AM

The crown over M is interesting , looking very European .... what do you think the significance of that is ?

rickystl · 2nd July 2015, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

The crown over M is interesting , looking very European .... what do you think the significance of that is ?

Hello.
I wish I knew what the barrel stamp meant. I'm a novice with marks. But I do recognize certain European/Belgium barrel marks. But I have no idea about this one.

maybe another Forum will see this thread and recognize it?
Maybe I should post just the barrel mark on the European Forum to see if anyone recognizes it?
Rick.

Raf · 4th July 2015, 11:21 AM

Hi . Sorry I cant help you much with the barrel mark. I have two of these guns both of which have stamped European looking marks ( a T within a diamond and numbers ) but the barrels are not I think European . One has an attempt at the Cominaz appellation to invite association with the famous Cominazzo family of barrel makers.

The odd thing about these guns is that they invariably turn up with crudely made and decorated stocks that are completely at odds with the locks and barrels which are of outstanding quality and this can make them look a bit suspect . My view is that they were originally high status guns that have moved down market and probably been re stocked several time in they're working life. The Royal Armouries , Leeds , UK has a garniture of firearms presented to the British Consul in Algiers in the 1770s which are profusely inlaid with coral carbuchons. The locks of which are as good but no better than the examples illustrated here. I think yours has been carefully refinished some time ago which has considerably improved its appearance as the stocks on mine are unutterably horrid.

You probably know all this but I will post it here anyway . They are usually described as Kabyle guns, but I think should be described as Arabian toe locks . Which are a variation of the seventeenth century Spanish aqujeta which is derived from the the romanlock or Italian toe lock (arguably) developed in Italy in the second half of the sixteenth century. Made in Morocco / Algeria , usually described as nineteenth century (isn everything ) but the Met, New York attributes their example to the mid eighteenth century and I can't see any reason why some may not be earlier.

rickystl · 4th July 2015, 07:09 PM

Hi Raf.
Thank you so much for your comments. And I comepletly agree with your theory of how these guns moved "down market" where they were re-stocked (more crudely) and/or the locks and barrels re-used numerous times. The toe-lock miquelets could have been made anywhere from 1650 to 1850. With the exception of small differences in decoration and size, it's almost as if the locks were all made in one shop LOL. Two other common themes on these guns I've noticed: The stocks are all made about 2/3 rds the length to the muzzle and have flat bottoms on the forends. And the locks are only inlet into the stocks about 1/3rd of the way. I've only seen one barrel that was shaped octagon-to-round. All others were tapered octagon.

The gun I posted: I can't believe this gun was not refinised at some point. Maybe a while back. If so, I sure wish I knew the methods used. LOL

The biggest mystery to me is the walrus inlays. There is only the slightest sign of yellow/aging. The silver barrel bands I'm sure are a later addition. But done in the traditional Algerian style for these guns. Yes, it sure does display well. Thanks again for your comments.
Rick.

4th July 2015, 11:21 AM	#3
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Hi . Sorry I cant help you much with the barrel mark. I have two of these guns both of which have stamped European looking marks ( a T within a diamond and numbers ) but the barrels are not I think European . One has an attempt at the Cominaz appellation to invite association with the famous Cominazzo family of barrel makers. The odd thing about these guns is that they invariably turn up with crudely made and decorated stocks that are completely at odds with the locks and barrels which are of outstanding quality and this can make them look a bit suspect . My view is that they were originally high status guns that have moved down market and probably been re stocked several time in they're working life. The Royal Armouries , Leeds , UK has a garniture of firearms presented to the British Consul in Algiers in the 1770s which are profusely inlaid with coral carbuchons. The locks of which are as good but no better than the examples illustrated here. I think yours has been carefully refinished some time ago which has considerably improved its appearance as the stocks on mine are unutterably horrid. You probably know all this but I will post it here anyway . They are usually described as Kabyle guns, but I think should be described as Arabian toe locks . Which are a variation of the seventeenth century Spanish aqujeta which is derived from the the romanlock or Italian toe lock (arguably) developed in Italy in the second half of the sixteenth century. Made in Morocco / Algeria , usually described as nineteenth century (isn everything ) but the Met, New York attributes their example to the mid eighteenth century and I can't see any reason why some may not be earlier. Attached Images Last edited by Raf; 4th July 2015 at 05:48 PM.

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30th June 2015, 07:46 AM	#1
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	The crown over M is interesting , looking very European .... what do you think the significance of that is ?

4th July 2015, 07:09 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Raf. Thank you so much for your comments. And I comepletly agree with your theory of how these guns moved "down market" where they were re-stocked (more crudely) and/or the locks and barrels re-used numerous times. The toe-lock miquelets could have been made anywhere from 1650 to 1850. With the exception of small differences in decoration and size, it's almost as if the locks were all made in one shop LOL. Two other common themes on these guns I've noticed: The stocks are all made about 2/3 rds the length to the muzzle and have flat bottoms on the forends. And the locks are only inlet into the stocks about 1/3rd of the way. I've only seen one barrel that was shaped octagon-to-round. All others were tapered octagon. The gun I posted: I can't believe this gun was not refinised at some point. Maybe a while back. If so, I sure wish I knew the methods used. LOL The biggest mystery to me is the walrus inlays. There is only the slightest sign of yellow/aging. The silver barrel bands I'm sure are a later addition. But done in the traditional Algerian style for these guns. Yes, it sure does display well. Thanks again for your comments. Rick.