A bugis(?) Keris for comment

Rafngard · 13th June 2015, 07:53 PM

Hello All, I’m a brand newbie member posting for the first time in the coffee shop.

This is a recent purchase from Epray. The parmor is Ngulit Semangka. The clothes are new (and look Bugis style to me), but the seller says the blade is older, and it does look old to me. However, It doesn’t quite look like straight Bugis blades that I’ve seen on the forum, but my eyes are far from trained on the subject.

I’d be happy to hear any thoughts on the question, or on the Keris over all.

Have fun,
Leif

David · 13th June 2015, 09:45 PM

Welcome to the Warung Leif.

Bugis culture is spread throughout the Indonesian archipelago and we can see it's influences in blades from Sulawesi to the Peninsula. That said, i see more Javanese influence in this particular blade than Bugis (though it is not a Javanese blade). My first guess at origin might be Sumatra, but others who specialize in these types of keris might have a better idea. I would indeed agree that it is an antique blade.
I also wouldn't call this dress form Bugis per se. Personally i often miss the subtle differences that distinguish some Sulawesi dress forms from Sumatra and even the Peninsula, but i find it even harder with this relatively new dress as the features of the Jawa Demam hilt and the sheath seem to have been simplified even more over truly older dress forms leaving me little to go on. I can certainly tell you where it is not from (Jawa, Bali, Madura), but i will leave it to other to pigeonhole. I would only be guessing if said Sumatra on the hilt and sheath just like the blade. But i still wouldn't use the name "Bugis" to identify any of this regardless.

BluErf · 14th June 2015, 06:40 AM

Thus keris looks like it was restored in Java, seeing the way the wood is sanded to remove all patina, and polished to a very high shine.

The hilt looks like a copy of a Sulawesi hilt, and the dark colour seems to be inline with Central Javanese aesthetics.

The blade could be Bugis Sulawesi, but I note the peksi is very long and relatively slim.

Sajen · 14th June 2015, 07:26 AM

Hi Blue,

I think that like Rafngard stated the sarung and hulu are recent work and worked on Java. And when you look closely to the peksi I think that the original one was broken and it's welded on an old javanese peksi.
That's my impression.

Regards,
Detlef

BluErf · 14th June 2015, 07:54 AM

Ah yes, indeed, the wood is not kemuning. Thanks for pointing out the welded peksi. It looks like the case.

David · 14th June 2015, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Ah yes, indeed, the wood is not kemuning. Thanks for pointing out the welded peksi. It looks like the case.

Good pint on the pesi Detlef. I hadn't noticed that and it was one of the reasons i was seeing more Javanese influence in this blade and thought Sumatra might be an origin. But that opinion could be easily changed by those with more information.

Rafngard · 14th June 2015, 03:15 PM

Oh, I had wondered about the peksi, but forgot to mention it.

Old Bugis "restored" in Java in would make a lot of sense. I see a lot of modern Javanese stuff from the same seller.

Thank you all do much for your opinions.

Thanks,
Leif

David · 14th June 2015, 06:11 PM

I am curious to hear what defines this as a Bugis blade for people. What characteristics of the blade make it specifically Bugis for you?

Sajen · 14th June 2015, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am curious to hear what defines this as a Bugis blade for people. What characteristics of the blade make it specifically Bugis for you?

I am not sure about the Bugis origin but the dapur and pamor let me think that it could be such a blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Rick · 14th June 2015, 07:19 PM

It has the aggressive lean of a Bugis type but the curve is not present that would make it, imo, a Sepokal form .
I'm not sure about the form of the blade in cross-section being particularly Buginese either .

Any chance this could be old Madura work ?
I'm just guessing by the way the pamor appears in the picture .

Rafngard · 15th June 2015, 06:11 AM

I would also be very happy to hear people's definition of what constitutes Bugis. I'm new, I want to learn.

Regarding the cross section, I could try to take a picture, if it would help.

Thanks,
Leif

A. G. Maisey · 16th June 2015, 10:07 AM

Very probably a dealer's marriage put together in Surabaya.

Wood is likely to be klengkeng.

David · 16th June 2015, 04:06 PM

Do you have any thoughts on the origins of the blade Alan?

A. G. Maisey · 17th June 2015, 07:19 AM

Jawa/Madura, pretty ordinary sort of thing, can't really give a classification because of lack of distinguishing features.

13th June 2015, 07:53 PM	#1
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 361	A bugis(?) Keris for comment Hello All, I’m a brand newbie member posting for the first time in the coffee shop. This is a recent purchase from Epray. The parmor is Ngulit Semangka. The clothes are new (and look Bugis style to me), but the seller says the blade is older, and it does look old to me. However, It doesn’t quite look like straight Bugis blades that I’ve seen on the forum, but my eyes are far from trained on the subject. I’d be happy to hear any thoughts on the question, or on the Keris over all. Have fun, Leif Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

13th June 2015, 09:45 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Welcome to the Warung Leif. Bugis culture is spread throughout the Indonesian archipelago and we can see it's influences in blades from Sulawesi to the Peninsula. That said, i see more Javanese influence in this particular blade than Bugis (though it is not a Javanese blade). My first guess at origin might be Sumatra, but others who specialize in these types of keris might have a better idea. I would indeed agree that it is an antique blade. I also wouldn't call this dress form Bugis per se. Personally i often miss the subtle differences that distinguish some Sulawesi dress forms from Sumatra and even the Peninsula, but i find it even harder with this relatively new dress as the features of the Jawa Demam hilt and the sheath seem to have been simplified even more over truly older dress forms leaving me little to go on. I can certainly tell you where it is not from (Jawa, Bali, Madura), but i will leave it to other to pigeonhole. I would only be guessing if said Sumatra on the hilt and sheath just like the blade. But i still wouldn't use the name "Bugis" to identify any of this regardless.

14th June 2015, 06:40 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thus keris looks like it was restored in Java, seeing the way the wood is sanded to remove all patina, and polished to a very high shine. The hilt looks like a copy of a Sulawesi hilt, and the dark colour seems to be inline with Central Javanese aesthetics. The blade could be Bugis Sulawesi, but I note the peksi is very long and relatively slim.

14th June 2015, 07:26 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,415	Hi Blue, I think that like Rafngard stated the sarung and hulu are recent work and worked on Java. And when you look closely to the peksi I think that the original one was broken and it's welded on an old javanese peksi. That's my impression. Regards, Detlef

14th June 2015, 07:54 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ah yes, indeed, the wood is not kemuning. Thanks for pointing out the welded peksi. It looks like the case.

14th June 2015, 03:15 PM	#7
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 361	Oh, I had wondered about the peksi, but forgot to mention it. Old Bugis "restored" in Java in would make a lot of sense. I see a lot of modern Javanese stuff from the same seller. Thank you all do much for your opinions. Thanks, Leif

14th June 2015, 06:11 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	I am curious to hear what defines this as a Bugis blade for people. What characteristics of the blade make it specifically Bugis for you?

14th June 2015, 07:19 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	It has the aggressive lean of a Bugis type but the curve is not present that would make it, imo, a Sepokal form . I'm not sure about the form of the blade in cross-section being particularly Buginese either . Any chance this could be old Madura work ? I'm just guessing by the way the pamor appears in the picture .

15th June 2015, 06:11 AM	#11
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 361	I would also be very happy to hear people's definition of what constitutes Bugis. I'm new, I want to learn. Regarding the cross section, I could try to take a picture, if it would help. Thanks, Leif

16th June 2015, 10:07 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Very probably a dealer's marriage put together in Surabaya. Wood is likely to be klengkeng.

16th June 2015, 04:06 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Do you have any thoughts on the origins of the blade Alan?

17th June 2015, 07:19 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Jawa/Madura, pretty ordinary sort of thing, can't really give a classification because of lack of distinguishing features.