Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

[kronckew]

key word i think being 'duel', an artificial rules bound form of lethal argument settling as opposed to actual melee battles between disciplined trained soldiers who need a sword capable of working at near and far ranges without getting stuck in an opponent due to over-penetration. military swords of the period were shorter, wider, and sharper, excepting possibly the nobility and officers who tended not to lead from the front. the ultimate rapier form, the smallsword was great for duels, but died out with the 18th century as they were not a good battle sword. the scots taught them that. george washinton i hear had a colchemarde smallsword but he carried a more practical spadroon or hanger in battle tho. doubt he ever used either to actually injure an opponent.

'rapier' is a term we now apply to similar weapons that like 'falcata' was not normally applied to by those who carried them in earnest. it's just a more convenient way of saying "long pointy stabby sword with a fancy loopy wire or cup) hand protector that doesn't cut very well but looks cool".

added:

there is also a practical limit on how long a blade you personally can carry & unsheath (and re-sheath), as well as a weight limit. most rapiers were 1.5 kilos-2kilos at most. much the same as earlier and later swords. you could of course carry a longer one on horseback, like an estoc - basically a backup lance.

found this elsewhere on a sword forum: probably what i was originally thinking of: the english wore rapiers much longer that the fashion in the rest of europe, thus the following.

As far as the Royal Proclamations go, the earliest is 1557, which stated;

“…from henceforth no person or persons, of what estate, or condition so ever he or they be, do use or weare by nyghte or by daye, not sell any sworde or rapier above the length of a yard and a halfe quarter in the blade at the most, not any buckler, with more pykes therein then one, and the same not to be sharpe, or above .ii ynches long, or of a broder syse then hath ben most commonly used within this Realme, nor use or weare any gauntlet, or vambrace, not any other weapon of defence, other than theyr common swordes, rapiers, daggers, and bucklers, according to thauncient usage”

This seems to have been roundly ignored, and on the 6th of May 1562 a further proclamation was made that;

“And where as an usage is crept in, contrary to fromer orders, of wearing of long Swordes, and Rapyers, sharpened in suche sort, as maye appeare the usage of them cannot tende to defence, whiche ought to be the very meanying of weearyng of weapons, in times of peace: but to murther, and evident death, when the same shalbe occupyed. Her Majesties pleasure is, that no man shall after .x dayes next following this Proclomation, weare any Sword, Rapier, or any weapon in theyr steade, passynge the length of one yard & halfe a quarter of blade, at the uttermost: neither any Dagger above the length of .xii inches in blade: neither any Buckler, with a sharpe point, or with any point above two ynches of length”

There does seem to have been serious, if not entirely consistent, efforts to enforce these statutes, and in 1580 Lord Talbot reported that;

“the French Imbasidore, Mounswer Mouiser, ridinge to take the ayer, in his returne came thowrowe Smithfield; and ther, at the bars, was steayed by thos offisers that sitteth to cut sourds, by reason his raper was longer than the statute: He was in a great feaurie, and dreawe his raper; in the meane season my Lord Henry Seamore cam, and so stayed the mattr”.

Given Silver’s comments, by 1599 they seem to have given up trying.

spelling (and grammar) was an individual thing back then - no dictionaries of standardized spellings till the 17th c... spelling tests - another thing we can blame the english for.

(the 'legal limit was thus 40.5 inches of blade)

[fernando]

After measure conversions, conclusion is that both nations allowed an equivalent sword length ... let alone the Portuguese preventing foul play with the hilt size.
Here attached the first part of Dom João III law published in 1539, where can be read the part: quality and condition that be do not bring in my realms and estates sword longer than five palms of ell: entring in them the grip and the pommel

Also here attached a high quality seven palm sword from the beg. XVII century and a rare example of a stretchable sword, both in legal and ilegal attitude. It is dated around 1640 and has an inscription VIVA EL REY DE PORTUGAL.
(both belonging in the collection of Rainer Daehnhardt)

The thesis that too long swords are implausible because they can not be unsheathed and re-sheathed has also been discussed here but, if a trouble maker is decided to go exhibit his point of view carrying with him his advantage, that will not be an obstacle; he simply has to go for it with a naked sword, thus not needing to take along his page to unsheath it for him. Ethics and aestethics don't count much in such occasions.

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[kronckew]

if you can parry and close with him a bit inside his point, he's dead. unless he has a parrying (main gauche) dagger on his off hand and you get TOO close. if you also have a left handed dagger, it turns into a nasty knife fight.

i got a good smack from my epee teacher in college when my practice opponent made a mistook and his blade was grabable with my left, so i did. i poked him with mine a few times while the instructor, a rather aged hungarian about 5 ft 2 in. tall and 80-something got into range and gave me a good one on the butt with his fencing sabre. it's apparently against the rules so is half-swording.ah, well... (he apparently got jumped by a few thugs one night on the subway going home thru the bronx in NYC. bad move. he put three in the hospital with his cane, he was small but all muscle and fast when he wanted to be.)

one of my favourite series was 'sharpe', i recall in the 'waterloo' episode one british cavalry officer commenting on french lancers that 'once you get past the point it's like killing rabbits'.

a similar instance early in ww1 saw a rare engagement between a british cavalry unit with swords and a similar sized german lancer unit actually charged each other. the brits had little trouble doing the rabbit thing and the german force retreated. the brits tried to cut them off but ran into a farmer's barbed wire fence and had to halt. a foreboding of things to come. one, if not the last, f the few actual cavalry engagements before the trenches and concertina'd barbed wire stopped all that noble stuff.

ps. - re the extensible sword, i had a vision of a few rubber bands between the hilt and the guard, you could hold the guard in your right hand and pull back on the hilt with the left, aim & let go. just don't miss

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~I spoted a very interesting website on the subject of these swords from the highly specialised metalurgical and scientific viewpoint on http://www.academia.edu/858988/Metal..._rapier_blades

There is an excellent section on blades with the correct blademarks but which are actually not of that maker.....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

interesting article, thanks.

the use of different steels and iron in different areas of the blade and the conclusion that some 'toledo' marked blades were actually made in solingen was interesting too.

sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... sadly, i was looking thru a new catalogue from a spanish supplier and they are now proudly listing a spanish cup hilt rapier with a toledo stainless steel blade. how far the mighty have fallen.

Much to the taste of those fans of replicas