Go on...show us your Choora!!

David · 9th June 2015, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you, David.

That's what I said. It will be wrong to build the findings, considering the small image.

Mahratt, considering it was you who brought this sketch into the discussion in the first place and that you were only just a couple of posts ago using it to try to advance your own theories and belief i find this last statement of yours quite amusing.
Again, i suggest that we leave this Egerton sketch behind and move forward with this discussion in a civil, good-spirit manner that seeks supportable evidence without prejudice and leaves far behind whatever petty scrabbles you and Ariel may have had on this subject somewhere on some Russian language forum.
That or the moderation team will unfortunately shut this discussion down.

mahratt · 9th June 2015, 07:22 PM

David, I'm glad that I can amuse you.

When I brought this sketch, I showed the shape of the blade, which is clearly visible. (The remaining fragments in the figure can not be seen).

But I brought this image, after about him said Ariel, assuming this is an important fact (post number 90):

[QUOTE=ariel]
Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-)
[QUOTE]

I violated some rules of the forum? Show me, please, where exactly I committed a violation, that I do not repeat their mistakes.

Thank you.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2015, 07:27 PM

Good point Mahratt on that the Egerton example is designated as Bannu, which if I am not mistaken is the same region as where the hafted axe (of zaghnal form) which is termed a 'lohar' is from. As I mentioned in my previous post, possibly the itinerant artisans who often crafted these might have developed the smaller version of karud which appears to have become colloquially known as 'choora'?

I think this might be pertinent, and hope you and the others here might express your views if my idea is possibly plausible.

All best regards,
Jim

David · 9th June 2015, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I violated some rules of the forum? Show me, please, where exactly I committed a violation, that I do not repeat their mistakes.
Thank you.

I have not singled you out specifically Mahratt for any particular violation. However both you and Ariel are dancing dangerously close to the border of the very first rule of these forums, "Be nice and respect your fellow members."
There is more written underneath that heading, a portion of which reads:
"Flames or insults are strictly against the rules. If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected.

If you find yourself being flamed or insulted by another member, please do not dignify that person with a response. Notify a moderator and let us handle it. If you feel you must respond to a flame or insult directly, please do NOT do so on the board - use private messages or e-mail."

If this rule had been more blatantly violated this thread would already be closed. You gentleman have been skirting dangerously close with the tone of your debate. My comments about thread closure is intended as a pre-emptive measure. I suggest you both take heed and adjust the direction of these discussions.

mahratt · 9th June 2015, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You gentleman have been skirting dangerously close with the tone of your debate. My comments about thread closure is intended as a pre-emptive measure. I suggest you both take heed and adjust the direction of these discussions.

David,

I would be grateful if you tell me exactly what kind of my words were on the brink of "Flames or insults"? You can quote these my words? This will help me to avoid violations.

Thank you.

David · 9th June 2015, 09:13 PM

Mahratt, i would be grateful if you stopped trying to make a public show of indignant innocence to this audience and simply understood that the tone of the debate between yourself and Ariel is not what we like to see in civil and reasonable debate on these forums. End of story.
If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.

mahratt · 9th June 2015, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Mahratt, i would be grateful if you stopped trying to make a public show of indignant innocence to this audience and simply understood that the tone of the debate between yourself and Ariel is not what we like to see in civil and reasonable debate on these forums. End of story.
If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.

Thanks for the reply David.

Public show - not my style. I do not know very well English. So I simply like to find out my alleged violations. From your words, I realized that specific violations of me was not (Since you are not citation). I'm glad I did not violate the rules and I will not violate the rules further (as well as it did before).

Thanks again.

David · 9th June 2015, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.

Obviously my last statement to you was unclear Mahratt. If you would like to question moderation policy, decisions or suggestions this is not the forum to do it in.

ariel · 9th June 2015, 10:57 PM

I think we have unnecessarily complicated the issue of Afghani weapons.
Both Karud and Choora ( whatever they mean) are straight-bladed derivatives of Persian Pesh Kabz. This is, likely, why many old ( and even contemporary) authors use Pesh Kabz as the general definition (Please refer to the recent books by Oliver Pinchot and Robert Hales).

Elgood and Flindt, in a joint statement bashfully admitted that they had no idea of the origin of the word Karud and suggested that it may just be a mis-literation of the word Kard ( Persian "knife"), as heard by an european traveller.

Choora is an Indian word also meaning just "knife" and I am uncertain that Muslim natives of Afghanistan would use it instead of more familiar Kard( Kord) and Bichaq ( P'chak). Although geographical closeness of the Khyber Pass area to India proper might have made it possible.

If we look at Karud and Choora side-by-side, they are absolutely identical blade-wise in terms of form, lenght or thickness. The only difference is the handle, including the calyx on the back of the blade, i.e. pure decoration, not affecting the fighting abilities of the implement. I think we have already discussed the leading role of the decorative elements in defining the ethnic character of a bladed weapon. Karuds were seen everywhere: the entire Afghanistan, Central Asia, Northern India; Choora was specific for a small corner of Afghanistan , - the Khyber Pass and vicinities. I would pose that Choora was just an ethnic variant of the Karud, the straight-bladed variant of Pesh Kabz.
When did the Mahsud ( as per Stone) started manufacturing it, - is the exact issue of the current discussion. One could easily suggest their acquisition of the mass produced "karud" blades in larger centers and fitting them with "their own" inexpensive handle. This would also agree with the occasional finding of a wootz blade ( pretty frequent on expensive Karuds with rhino, ivory or valuable stone handles) coupled with ivory pommel: an Afghani bling-bling :-) Also, poor quality blades with a mishmash of cheap materials might have been attempts of provincial, village production. The last sentences are pure and unadulterated IMHO, but what the unbridled fantasy is for :-)))

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9th June 2015, 07:22 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	David, I'm glad that I can amuse you. When I brought this sketch, I showed the shape of the blade, which is clearly visible. (The remaining fragments in the figure can not be seen). But I brought this image, after about him said Ariel, assuming this is an important fact (post number 90): [QUOTE=ariel] Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-) [QUOTE] I violated some rules of the forum? Show me, please, where exactly I committed a violation, that I do not repeat their mistakes. Thank you.

9th June 2015, 07:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Good point Mahratt on that the Egerton example is designated as Bannu, which if I am not mistaken is the same region as where the hafted axe (of zaghnal form) which is termed a 'lohar' is from. As I mentioned in my previous post, possibly the itinerant artisans who often crafted these might have developed the smaller version of karud which appears to have become colloquially known as 'choora'? I think this might be pertinent, and hope you and the others here might express your views if my idea is possibly plausible. All best regards, Jim

9th June 2015, 09:13 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Mahratt, i would be grateful if you stopped trying to make a public show of indignant innocence to this audience and simply understood that the tone of the debate between yourself and Ariel is not what we like to see in civil and reasonable debate on these forums. End of story. If you wish further clarification please PM me and i will attempt to explain it to you in terms you can better understand.

9th June 2015, 10:57 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we have unnecessarily complicated the issue of Afghani weapons. Both Karud and Choora ( whatever they mean) are straight-bladed derivatives of Persian Pesh Kabz. This is, likely, why many old ( and even contemporary) authors use Pesh Kabz as the general definition (Please refer to the recent books by Oliver Pinchot and Robert Hales). Elgood and Flindt, in a joint statement bashfully admitted that they had no idea of the origin of the word Karud and suggested that it may just be a mis-literation of the word Kard ( Persian "knife"), as heard by an european traveller. Choora is an Indian word also meaning just "knife" and I am uncertain that Muslim natives of Afghanistan would use it instead of more familiar Kard( Kord) and Bichaq ( P'chak). Although geographical closeness of the Khyber Pass area to India proper might have made it possible. If we look at Karud and Choora side-by-side, they are absolutely identical blade-wise in terms of form, lenght or thickness. The only difference is the handle, including the calyx on the back of the blade, i.e. pure decoration, not affecting the fighting abilities of the implement. I think we have already discussed the leading role of the decorative elements in defining the ethnic character of a bladed weapon. Karuds were seen everywhere: the entire Afghanistan, Central Asia, Northern India; Choora was specific for a small corner of Afghanistan , - the Khyber Pass and vicinities. I would pose that Choora was just an ethnic variant of the Karud, the straight-bladed variant of Pesh Kabz. When did the Mahsud ( as per Stone) started manufacturing it, - is the exact issue of the current discussion. One could easily suggest their acquisition of the mass produced "karud" blades in larger centers and fitting them with "their own" inexpensive handle. This would also agree with the occasional finding of a wootz blade ( pretty frequent on expensive Karuds with rhino, ivory or valuable stone handles) coupled with ivory pommel: an Afghani bling-bling :-) Also, poor quality blades with a mishmash of cheap materials might have been attempts of provincial, village production. The last sentences are pure and unadulterated IMHO, but what the unbridled fantasy is for :-)))