Persian Long Gun

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Rick,
Another extremely beautifull rifle!
I like the powder flask too!!
Have you seen Elgood's book on arms of Arabia?
He mentionned Persian barrels with some stamps quite similar to yours.
We have to wait Khorasani's book on Persian firearms.
I know that we have to be cautious with the origins of our objects, but I agree with you, your gun looks Persian to me.
Even if Caucasian arms were very popular amongst Persians, Ottomans, Russians and whatever! I don't like people who deny Persian influence on Islamic arms. The Khurasan was a major center of steel production and a major place for metal work. Persian steel was extremely popular with the Arabs. By the way, do you have nice damascus pattern on your barrel?
Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur.
Thanks for your comments. No, I don't have Arms of Arabia. But I should. There are some copies available, but WHEW..THE PRICE! I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and order a copy. I'm sure it won't get any less expensive as time goes on.
Is there a book coming out on Persian firearms? Is there a release date yet?
Yes, we know the Caucasian long guns especially were heavily Persian influenced. Not only the stock shape, but also the barrels and locks. The lock on this gun has the early sear arrangement. This, together with the other features, is why I would date this gun no later than the 1st Quarter of the 19th Century. Of course, I've been wrong before. But the evidence at present leads me to believe this is an early, all Persian made gun. Differing opinions are most welcome.
BARREL: While the barrel was off the gun and un-breached, both the gunsmith and myself tried to find some evidence of a damascus pattern. But even under magnification, we can't seem to detect any. Which I find surprising for a gun of this quality. But, as I mentioned, I believe the barrel and lock were chemically cleaned at some point. And the wrong chemicals can cause a fading of damascus pattern. But I just can't tell if this was the case.
The likely all Persian origins of this gun make it one of the most interesting in my collection. Thanks again for your interest.
Rick.

[Oliver Pinchot]

This is one longarm which can definitely be attributed to a Persian craftsman, due to the marquetry work featured prominently on the stock. In Persian, this is known as Khatam kari, after the city of Khatam in the Yazd region. It is not a particularly durable form of embellishment, so it's a pleasant surprise to find an example with so much of the marquetry work intact. A rare and handsome example.

[ward]

Usually collectors or dealers have a large reference library. Elgood in my opinion writes well and researches what he is writing. If you were a decorator it would make sense not to read or research as much.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

This is one longarm which can definitely be attributed to a Persian craftsman, due to the marquetry work featured prominently on the stock. In Persian, this is known as Khatam kari, after the city of Khatam in the Yazd region. It is not a particularly durable form of embellishment, so it's a pleasant surprise to find an example with so much of the marquetry work intact. A rare and handsome example.

Hi Oliver.
Thanks for your comments. And THANK YOU for the information! Much appreciated. You're right. The embellishment is not very durable. It's a bit brittle, so I have to be a little careful when handling the stock. I've had to re-glue a couple of very small sections that were loose. It's one of my favorite pieces due to it's Persian origins.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
Thanks for your comments. No, I don't have Arms of Arabia. But I should. There are some copies available, but WHEW..THE PRICE! I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and order a copy. I'm sure it won't get any less expensive as time goes on.
Is there a book coming out on Persian firearms? Is there a release date yet?
Yes, we know the Caucasian long guns especially were heavily Persian influenced. Not only the stock shape, but also the barrels and locks. The lock on this gun has the early sear arrangement. This, together with the other features, is why I would date this gun no later than the 1st Quarter of the 19th Century. Of course, I've been wrong before. But the evidence at present leads me to believe this is an early, all Persian made gun. Differing opinions are most welcome.
BARREL: While the barrel was off the gun and un-breached, both the gunsmith and myself tried to find some evidence of a damascus pattern. But even under magnification, we can't seem to detect any. Which I find surprising for a gun of this quality. But, as I mentioned, I believe the barrel and lock were chemically cleaned at some point. And the wrong chemicals can cause a fading of damascus pattern. But I just can't tell if this was the case.
The likely all Persian origins of this gun make it one of the most interesting in my collection. Thanks again for your interest.
Rick.

Hi Rick,
Not sure which of Elgood's books Kubur is referring to. The Arms and Armour of Arabia ISBN 0-85967-972-1 deals mainly in the general weapons of Arabia. There is not a huge amount of content related to guns only.
The other Elgood book which DOES relate to firearms is Firearms of the Islamic World ISBN 1-85043-963-X. If your interest is more gun related, then IMHO this is the one you need to have in your library. Check abebooks.com and I am sure you will find both available there. There are of course other publications as well, such as Tirri's Islamic Arms, Maghreb to Moghul, and Robert Hales' Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armour ISBN 978-0-99263315-0-5
Happy hunting......
Stu

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
Not sure which of Elgood's books Kubur is referring to. The Arms and Armour of Arabia ISBN 0-85967-972-1 deals mainly in the general weapons of Arabia. There is not a huge amount of content related to guns only.
The other Elgood book which DOES relate to firearms is Firearms of the Islamic World ISBN 1-85043-963-X. If your interest is more gun related, then IMHO this is the one you need to have in your library. Check abebooks.com and I am sure you will find both available there. There are of course other publications as well, such as Tirri's Islamic Arms, Maghreb to Moghul, and Robert Hales' Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armour ISBN 978-0-99263315-0-5
Happy hunting......
Stu

Hi Stu.
In my library I have Tirri's Islamic Weapons, Elgood's Firearms of the Islamic World and The Arms of Greece. Also have what is supposed to be a rare book: Weaponry of the Past, which has some very technical reading of some of these guns. Also a couple other hard to find publications.
But I'll search for Robert Hales' book. Thanks.
Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Kubur.
Thanks for your comments. No, I don't have Arms of Arabia. But I should. There are some copies available, but WHEW..THE PRICE! I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and order a copy. I'm sure it won't get any less expensive as time goes on.
Is there a book coming out on Persian firearms? Is there a release date yet?
Yes, we know the Caucasian long guns especially were heavily Persian influenced. Not only the stock shape, but also the barrels and locks. The lock on this gun has the early sear arrangement. This, together with the other features, is why I would date this gun no later than the 1st Quarter of the 19th Century. Of course, I've been wrong before. But the evidence at present leads me to believe this is an early, all Persian made gun. Differing opinions are most welcome.
BARREL: While the barrel was off the gun and un-breached, both the gunsmith and myself tried to find some evidence of a damascus pattern. But even under magnification, we can't seem to detect any. Which I find surprising for a gun of this quality. But, as I mentioned, I believe the barrel and lock were chemically cleaned at some point. And the wrong chemicals can cause a fading of damascus pattern. But I just can't tell if this was the case.
The likely all Persian origins of this gun make it one of the most interesting in my collection. Thanks again for your interest.
Rick.

Hi Rick,
You make mention of the possibility of Damascus pattern fading thru the use of wrong chemicals. This is correct, BUT, TRUE Damascus pattern is created by the different types of metal folded and beaten together in a certain way by heat forging. The pattern can not be removed (unless applied by some other means) and will appear again when treated in the correct way. The pattern is created by the different reactions of the metal types to the chemicals used.
Stu

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
You make mention of the possibility of Damascus pattern fading thru the use of wrong chemicals. This is correct, BUT, TRUE Damascus pattern is created by the different types of metal folded and beaten together in a certain way by heat forging. The pattern can not be removed (unless applied by some other means) and will appear again when treated in the correct way. The pattern is created by the different reactions of the metal types to the chemicals used.
Stu

Hi Stu.
Yes, I know what you're saying about damascus. This barrel may simply not be damascus. Sure could not find a trace of it when the barrel was off the stock.
I've also noticed on some of these guns where you have stock and barrel embellishment, but plain locks. And that seems to be the case here.
Rick.