The Syrian Jambiya/Khanjar

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys
I know that is an old post.
But I have one question, you date these daggers, for the oldest ones, from the 1920ties. If you look the Charles Buttin catalogue, you will see the same kind of dagger dated from the 19th c. My question is do you think that sometimes you underestimate the antiquity of some objects? It's a classic case with the experimented collectors or the good dealers, they don't want to surestimate the age of an object... Just the opposite of the young collectors and bad dealers who want to make some money.

Hi Kubur,
I think that what you suggest is probably quite true. It must be remembered that this type of weapon was not generally made in a factory, so that unlike (for example) English Firearms from known makers, where production information is usually readily available, ACTUAL manufacture dates of these, and other "ethnic" daggers and weapons can not generally be accurately verified. We have publications from early travellers in the region, and more modern publications, but I am sure that all of these probably contain some errors. In the end it comes down to the knowledge (or lack of it) of the individual to determine the age of an item.
The bottom line is LET THE BUYER BEWARE. I have before quoted this statement made to me years ago by a now long gone collector. He said to me that "If it does not look right, then it probably isn't". This has stood me in good stead over the years.
Stu

[Kubur]

Just to come back at this old post and what I said about these daggers. Some of them are clearly from the 19th c. Look at the silver or lead star patterns, they are exactly the same on the the Syrian or badawi swords...

[Kubur]

Instead of opening a new thread I prefer to feed this one
Here a pic from Tarsus Museum in Turkey:
note the Majdali with a nice Turkish? Kurdish? scabbard... Late 19th or very early 20th c...

[Montagnard]

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...

But now I think it might be an original?

From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?

Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Montagnard

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...
But now I think it might be an original?
From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?
Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome
BR,
Montagnard

Hi,
First this tourist stories are nonsense, many forum members are talking about that but most of the weapons here are for tourists, the question is more are they old and are they produced manually / traditionally? Did they have been used by locals too?
You can put in this "bag" most of the Indian and Persian weapons from the end of the 19th and early 20th c.
Your dagger is a Syrian Magdali or Majdali, probably 1930-40, during the French mandate. Did the Syrians or Druze in fact (for this area) used this dagger? the answser is yes, did they sell souvenirs to the French and the first tourists? the answser is yes.
So be carreful on this forum, you will see members with very strong ideas and opinions, but they are just opinions, this statment includes myself.
Your dagger is engraved instead of the classic acid etching and the hilt is decorated only on one face that is a very good sign.
I don't know for the inscription sometimes it's just written "souvenir de Syrie", it's not a joke...
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Montagnard

At first, I thought it would be a typical tourist dagger...

But now I think it might be an original?

From the pics above I would say that it fits to the Damaskus style, see the three stars on the blade. Anybody out there who can help in translating/explaning the engraving?

Any comments regarding its origin, inscription and age would be highly welcome

BR,
Montagnard

Whether it is original or not is a matter of opinion. Is a mass produced dagger made in Syrian design and in Syria an authentic representation of historic Syrian daggers? it is up to you to decide.

Those daggers are made with plastic hilts and sometimes synthetic MoP with brass and etched sheet steel blades. They look not so different compared to the older ones except in quality and in fine details. Older blades are high quality with some having complicated fullering.

Yours is no different from pieces mass produced in the 2000's, they could be commonly found in antique shops around the Arab world.

Majdalis from the early 20th century are generally of high quality for what they are.

[motan]

Hello all,
I agree with some of Kubur's and A.alnakkas' comments, but disagree with others. The identification by A.alnakkas is, I think, correct. Montagnard's dagger is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. dagger made exclusively for the souvenir market. They are made to this day not only in Syria, but in Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan en China.
However, I also agree with Kubur that the distinction between tourist and original pieces is not clear-cut, especially where locals still carry daggers, or have done so until recently like in Morocco, Oman, UAE, KSA, Jordan, Afghanistan and several others.
If your aim is to collect nice weapons, you may not care too much about authenticity. If you are more interested in the ethnographic aspect, like I am, it could matter a lot. I personally prefer pieces with signs of use to pristine ones because that way I can be sure. Most collectors prefer 100% clean examples. So, there is a continuum between tourist and authentic items and it is a matter of personal preference what you consider "original".

As for Majdali daggers, it is true that early pieces are generally of better quality, but this is certainly not 1:1 relationship. There are old ones of mediocre quality, like the very first example in this thread, and later ones of excellent quality like in my picture (from Artzi's site). There was a particular low point of quality around or just before 1960 (see DaveA's third example in this thread-sorry DaveA, but your second one is also the best and oldest in this thread) so that you can not really say that modern ones are worse.

[Montagnard]

Dear Gentlemen,

since my dagger has not the slightest traces of use, I finally follow the conclusion that it is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. piece made exclusively for the souvenir market.

Thank you all for your expertise.
Montagnard

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by motan

Hello all,
I agree with some of Kubur's and A.alnakkas' comments, but disagree with Montagnard's dagger is a late 20th c. or Early 21st c. dagger made exclusively for the souvenir market.
As for Majdali daggers, it is true that early pieces are generally of better quality, but this is certainly not 1:1 relationship.

Hi Motan,
I was waiting for your comment.
Of course I agree with alnakas and you and all your comments.
I disagree with you about the date, I think you're unfair, it's not a late 20th c.
Look at the scabbard it doesnt look like a 2 thick brass pieces but more like a wooden one with brass sheat.
I also disagree with myself and my comment about engraved or acid etched, old ones are also acid etched...
Motan you were looking for a very good and old majdali and i was looking for the same thing. I think i found one and i didnt find anything similar on the web. But I found some Ottoman knives 18th c. with the same design. What I found is not from the 18th c. but its a very strange bird and most probably from the 19th c...
Kubur