UNIDENTIFIED INDO PERSIAN OR ARAB SWORD FOR COMMENT

[mahratt]

I think this is Afghanistan.

[spiral]

Indeed Tatyana! Nice example!

They {The Afghan military} brought in weapons from everywhere, the also mixed matched component's & they also copied them as well!

And that's not even mentioning what the indigenous tribes created & mixed & matched.....

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by spiral

And that's not even mentioning what the indigenous tribes created & mixed & matched.....

Yup, my example.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a most interesting example of variations of 'Anglo-Afghan' type arms which evolved in Afghan armies after the 2nd Anglo-Afghan war (Treaty of Gandamak, 30 May, 1879). While the Afghans had been developing a degree of 'westernization' in their armies with British subsidy much earlier, the Russians in the beginnings of the 'Great Game' were also trying to effect diplomatic relations there.

With this confluence, numbers of arms from these countries began coming in, and this influx of course continued well into the 20th century (obviously these conditions prevail into present times).

Amir Abdur Rahman Khan after the 1879 treaty became the de facto ruler under British suzerains, and with their subsidies continued industrial advance, in 1887 establishing the Mashin Khana arsenal in Kabul. Under British advisors the production of arms took place here, mostly with firearms but certainly including edged weapons in degree.

Most commonly seen are the Afghan swords sometimes termed 'regulation' types for the Afghan army, most of which seem to have been produced in the 1890s. These have characteristic pierced sheet steel knuckleguards with parallel openings (resembling typical guards on a number of European forms and British). At the top are also the complex 'swans neck' terminals next to the pommel. (see attached)

In the case of the posted example here, the pommel has an interesting cleft feature, which I would attribute to the forementioned Russian influences. It is worthy of note that a number of shashka like swords are present in Afghan context.

This blade is of a form known as 'quill point' well established in Germany early 19th c and often present on British cavalry sabres. It continued in German use well through the 19th c.

In 1893, Germany covertly sent representatives into Afghanistan to expand the arms factories. As the multi channeled heavy blades on the Afghan 'regulation' type swords seem quite German in quality, it begs the question , perhaps these quill point blades were produced for Afghan use as well?

I would say this is an Afghan military sabre of latter 19th century . It does not seem to have been produced in Mashin Khana as the notable mark is not present.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very well done Jim.
Jens

[spiral]

Years ago when I had a couple of these to hand, I discussed them with Robert Wilkinson -Latham because the steel & grinding was unlike anything Ive seen on any other Afghan weapon.

He & the German experts he then consulted were of the opinion they were clearly Solingen made.

The Afghan temple marks on some blades are just ownership or inspection marks As there are also many English made Lee Enfield bayonets that carry the same hot stamp...{As well as the Afghan made ones..}

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by spiral

Years ago when I had a couple of these to hand, I discussed them with Robert Wilkinson -Latham because the steel & grinding was unlike anything Ive seen on any other Afghan weapon.

He & the German experts he then consulted were of the opinion they were clearly Solingen made.

The Afghan temple marks on some blades are just ownership or inspection marks As there are also many English made Lee Enfield bayonets that carry the same hot stamp...{As well as the Afghan made ones..}

These marks were used by the regime, and primarily applied at the Mashin Khana, as described in the article on this establishment in Man at Arms (2009). This factory was in operation producing many of the Enfield rifles and accompanying bayonets in the 1880s in their assembly, with some components brought in under British supervision Mr. Wikinson-Latham would of course be well versed in these circumstances, and it seems he indicated to me at one point that many of the bayonets had been produced en masse in Solingen for makers in England to meet voluminous quotas.

[ariel]

There was an article by Mahratt here on on this Forum postulating existence of an evolution of the Afghani khybers toward the "regulation" pattern illustrated by Jim.
I was always uneasy with the term "evolution", since the same or a very similar pattern was worn by an Afghani representative at the Treaty of Gandamak, well before the appearance of its alleged "evolutionary predecessors" marked with the Mashin Khana " Mazar-I- Sharif" stamp.

But be it as it may, the conclusions of the current topic strongly veer toward the existence of an unstructured hodge-pudge of Afghani weapons at the time of massive penetration of the Afghani military tradition by the Western influences: handles, D-guards , blades.

I fully agree with Tatiana: in that part of the world one finds contemporarily existing weirdest combinations of native Afghani tradition, British examples of various ages and patterns, German imports and Russian "regulation" pattern were thrown together without any centralized overarching idea. The same is happening even today, with the Khyber knife and AK-47 happily coexisting side by side. No evolution here: Afghanistan is an island that time forgot......

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

These marks were used by the regime, and primarily applied at the Mashin Khana, as described in the article on this establishment in Man at Arms (2009). This factory was in operation producing many of the Enfield rifles and accompanying bayonets in the 1880s in their assembly, with some components brought in under British supervision Mr. Wikinson-Latham would of course be well versed in these circumstances, and it seems he indicated to me at one point that many of the bayonets had been produced en masse in Solingen for makers in England to meet voluminous quotas.

Thank you Jim, that's fascinating!

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Very well done Jim.
Jens

Jens, thank you very, very much!!!!