TWO MATCHLOCK MUSKETS for ID and COMMENT

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu. Now you have a couple of Torador types to go with the Flask. Off hand, I would agree that you have one variation of a Torador, with the other being Indo/Arab. I'll try to do some research to see if we can pin this down a little closer.
An interesting feature on #1: It still retains it's vent pick and chain, and a curious metal piece with a cone shape on one end that I've only seen once before. I've never really known what the purpose is for the cone shaped lever. Hmmm. I have to guesses: 1). Possibly used to extinguish a lit match? Or 2). Maybe to carry a small amount of tinder to make fire to light the match?
Any other ideas? Rick.

Hi Rick,
I agree with your comments that #1 is probably Indo/Arab, and the other a Torador type.
The restoration and cleaning of #1 is well underway and I should be able to get things finished in the next week or so. Will post pics then.
As you say the vent pricker is still present. The cone shaped piece is for holding the hot end of the match. As it has no holes in it, I am thinking it is to extinguish a lighted match. I have attached a pic of a matchholder on my Omani matchlock. You can see it is a double one....one for extinguishing, and the vented one for holding a lighted match.
Now to your comment about the barrel. There is no evidence that I can see, that there is a breech plug on mine....certainly not a screwed one. So IF one exists then I agree that it is probably shrunk in. I have not heard about these having a powder chamber. I am aware that these do exist, but have only seen them in pistols with a screw off barrel, and never on long guns. Once I get the bore clean enough, I will have a good look with my bore light.
Keep you posted as things progress.
Stu
P.S. Meant to say that the stock is in one piece apart from the "insert" behind the match hammer.

[rickystl]

Hi Stu. That double match holder on your Omani gun is very neat !!! So yes, I agree that the cone shaped one on the Indian gun was likely used to extinguish the match.
If you get the barrel off one of the Indian guns, maybe you could post pics of it? I guess I shouldn't be so lazy and just take the barrel off mine.
I simply can not figure out the parts/process used to seal the breech.
If you go to YouTube and search under matchlock you will find the vidio of the Indian matchlock barrel where they cut the breech of one barrel to inspect it. And they test fire another barrel. Very neat vidio. But the don't mention how lthe breech was sealed. Anyway, between the both of us we will eventually figure it out.
Stocks: I've seen them with one piece stocks. Mine has a two-piece, but the barrel is 56" long. I once saw one that had a three-piece stock with the barrel being 72" long. LOL. Thanks again for your imput. Rick.

[kahnjar1]

I already have one of the barrels off so will post some pics in the next day or so. As mentioned before there is no VISIBLE breech plug but that is not to say that there is not one that can not be seen. The barrel is smooth bore so it COULD have been drilled from the muzzle end. This method was used on European guns in past times.
Stu

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu. That double match holder on your Omani gun is very neat !!! So yes, I agree that the cone shaped one on the Indian gun was likely used to extinguish the match.
If you get the barrel off one of the Indian guns, maybe you could post pics of it? I guess I shouldn't be so lazy and just take the barrel off mine.
I simply can not figure out the parts/process used to seal the breech.
If you go to YouTube and search under matchlock you will find the vidio of the Indian matchlock barrel where they cut the breech of one barrel to inspect it. And they test fire another barrel. Very neat vidio. But the don't mention how lthe breech was sealed. Anyway, between the both of us we will eventually figure it out.
Stocks: I've seen them with one piece stocks. Mine has a two-piece, but the barrel is 56" long. I once saw one that had a three-piece stock with the barrel being 72" long. LOL. Thanks again for your imput. Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I already have one of the barrels off so will post some pics in the next day or so. As mentioned before there is no VISIBLE breech plug but that is not to say that there is not one that can not be seen. The barrel is smooth bore so it COULD have been drilled from the muzzle end. This method was used on European guns in past times.
Stu

Managed to find time so here are the pics of the barrel. The clean up revealed some nice brass inlays. The breech end of the barrel is very rough and appears to have always been this way as there is no sign of any smoothing. To me this suggests that there is no breech plug sweated in, but I may be wrong.
The side view shows a lug with a hole in it, below the rear sight. This is for a pin to secure the breech end of the barrel, which is otherwise attached only by barrel bands.
Stu

[rickystl]

Hi Stu. Thanks so much for the pics !!! First time I've ever seen the breech area on these barrels. Ok. I see the stud for the pin that holds the breach area of the barrel to the stock. That makes sense. Yes, there does not appear to be a breech plug, as we usually refer to one. Looks like some type of iron is added to the breech end and then hammer or forge welded closed. Very unusual. I gu was this was done to eliminate the need for threads. But it looks like the hole in the breech is larger than the bore diameter, which would confirm my theory of the powder chamber. What do you think? Nice to see the brass decoration on the barrel after cleaning. What a surprise.
Well, I'm still on limited correspondence. They are rebuilding the new server computer at work today. So I won't be able to post additional pics of the Jazail o r another gun till Saturday. Again, thank you so much for these barrel pics. I have take the barrel off mine to see if it was built similar. Rick.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu. Thanks so much for the pics !!! First time I've ever seen the breech area on these barrels. Ok. I see the stud for the pin that holds the breach area of the barrel to the stock. That makes sense. Yes, there does not appear to be a breech plug, as we usually refer to one. Looks like some type of iron is added to the breech end and then hammer or forge welded closed. Very unusual. I gu was this was done to eliminate the need for threads. But it looks like the hole in the breech is larger than the bore diameter, which would confirm my theory of the powder chamber. What do you think? Nice to see the brass decoration on the barrel after cleaning. What a surprise.
Well, I'm still on limited correspondence. They are rebuilding the new server computer at work today. So I won't be able to post additional pics of the Jazail o r another gun till Saturday. Again, thank you so much for these barrel pics. I have take the barrel off mine to see if it was built similar. Rick.

As stated before, I have extreme doubts as to the existence of a "powder chamber". IF one exists how does one see that it is filled to the CORRECT level?? On pistols with turnoff barrels one can see how full the chamber is...........
Stu

[Albert]

In the book Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, is a nice plate with a number of Toradars.
I will see if I can post it.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

As stated before, I have extreme doubts as to the existence of a "powder chamber". IF one exists how does one see that it is filled to the CORRECT level?? On pistols with turnoff barrels one can see how full the chamber is...........
Stu

Hi Stu. I'm finally back home and the computer is fixed. LOL Thanks for your PM correspondence.
OH! I so hope you are right that there is NOT a powder chamber. As you mention, it would be difficult to know how much powder to use. You would want to make sure the chamber is full. Otherwise the load could end up a bore obstruction. Maybe all of the larger breech area just contains the iron filler up to where the actual bore size begins? Hmmm.. But I think I know how to find out for sure. I'll use my tiny bore light with a wire and run it down to the end of the barrel and view. I have wood ramrods/cleaning rods that are 57" long and various sizes of cleaning jags. So I will run the rod down the barrel as far as it will go and measure the length of the inside of the bore versus the outside length of the barrel. This should tell me the amount of FILL there is in the breech length. Then I'll slowly run a snug cleaning patch down the barrel to see if the resistance is the same for the entire length. Or will the patch become loose at the breech end. I'll report back this weekend. Rick.