Moro Tulip Kris (need Arabic/Jawi translation please)

Battara · 29th January 2015, 04:20 AM

Tru'dat, Rick. I have owned 2 Maguindanao kris in the past that ended in blade points like this, one of which was this one:

Robert · 29th January 2015, 05:45 AM

The tip on the first is even more angular than the tip of the one just posted. While I have seen a few examples very similar to the the second kris posted, this is the first one I have seen where the tip is made with such abrupt angles as those shown on the first piece.
By the way, very nice silverwork on the replacement band, If you had not pointed it out I do not think anyone would have even noticed.

Best,
Robert

Spunjer · 29th January 2015, 06:43 PM

interesting kris! i always associate those pommels as more of a phallic symbol that tulips, lol. i've seen wood, but not ivory. also, i would say that it's older that what you credit it for, jose. turn of the century, at least... nice catch on this one!

regarding the inlay:
can't help you with the Jawi part, but on the western script side, i believe it's a name. if i'm not mistaken, it says: "property of Ron, please return promptly if found". i kid, lol...
seriously, i think it says "J.T. Van Orsdale". J.T., or John Timothy Van Orsdale served under General Woods in Cotabato from 1903 to 1904. he was a colonel, and in charged of the 17th Infantry. after doing his tour, he stayed for another year in Zamboanga. he left mindanao in 1905, and i believe he went to Cuba after that. so going back to the age of this kris, if it's indeed his going away present, that would place this piece around the turn of the century.
another thing; seems to be a common practice back in the day to give a high ranking officer a kris when they leave Mindanao. a similar practice today would be something like this but rather than putting the officer's name on the blade, it's engraved on a plaque. there was another piece that has a name inlayed on it; from Reina Regente i think. i believe it was Ian's piece?
hope this helps

Gustav · 29th January 2015, 06:54 PM

A fantastic provenance. And one more kris, which shows pointy luk already near the turn of the century.

David · 29th January 2015, 07:50 PM

Col. J.T. Van Orsdale circa 1906. He died in 1921.

CharlesS · 29th January 2015, 08:34 PM

Another really fine example Jose, and excellent work on your part. I tend to agree with Ron about the age and think it's at least a little older than you think.

Was there any particular reason you dated it as you did. Perhaps you have some more provenance on it?

Battara · 29th January 2015, 11:52 PM

Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century.

I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga.

Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu.

I also thank you David for the picture.

And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory.

Yes I am as pleased as punch!

29th January 2015, 04:20 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,298	Tru'dat, Rick. I have owned 2 Maguindanao kris in the past that ended in blade points like this, one of which was this one: Attached Images

29th January 2015, 07:50 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Col. J.T. Van Orsdale circa 1906. He died in 1921. Attached Images Last edited by David; 30th January 2015 at 03:50 PM.

29th January 2015, 08:34 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Another really fine example Jose, and excellent work on your part. I tend to agree with Ron about the age and think it's at least a little older than you think. Was there any particular reason you dated it as you did. Perhaps you have some more provenance on it? Last edited by CharlesS; 30th January 2015 at 12:37 PM.

29th January 2015, 11:52 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,298	Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century. I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga. Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu. I also thank you David for the picture. And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory. Yes I am as pleased as punch! Last edited by Battara; 30th January 2015 at 03:38 AM.

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29th January 2015, 05:45 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The tip on the first is even more angular than the tip of the one just posted. While I have seen a few examples very similar to the the second kris posted, this is the first one I have seen where the tip is made with such abrupt angles as those shown on the first piece. By the way, very nice silverwork on the replacement band, If you had not pointed it out I do not think anyone would have even noticed. Best, Robert

29th January 2015, 06:43 PM	#3
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	interesting kris! i always associate those pommels as more of a phallic symbol that tulips, lol. i've seen wood, but not ivory. also, i would say that it's older that what you credit it for, jose. turn of the century, at least... nice catch on this one! regarding the inlay: can't help you with the Jawi part, but on the western script side, i believe it's a name. if i'm not mistaken, it says: "property of Ron, please return promptly if found". i kid, lol... seriously, i think it says "J.T. Van Orsdale". J.T., or John Timothy Van Orsdale served under General Woods in Cotabato from 1903 to 1904. he was a colonel, and in charged of the 17th Infantry. after doing his tour, he stayed for another year in Zamboanga. he left mindanao in 1905, and i believe he went to Cuba after that. so going back to the age of this kris, if it's indeed his going away present, that would place this piece around the turn of the century. another thing; seems to be a common practice back in the day to give a high ranking officer a kris when they leave Mindanao. a similar practice today would be something like this but rather than putting the officer's name on the blade, it's engraved on a plaque. there was another piece that has a name inlayed on it; from Reina Regente i think. i believe it was Ian's piece? hope this helps

29th January 2015, 06:54 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,294	A fantastic provenance. And one more kris, which shows pointy luk already near the turn of the century.