Interesting war club with cross cultural features

RSWORD · 28th January 2015, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trenchwarfare

AZAC trench club? I saw a club on ebay years ago, that looked like a Knobkerrie, with added WWI hobnails, and markings.

I know what you are referring to and while similar in design I am leaning heavily towards this club having an Oceanic origin with European iron and leather. The wood and carving style point us in that direction.

RSWORD · 28th January 2015, 01:03 PM

Jimmy, Barry,

You guys have a lot of club references and experience with these type of things. Any thoughts?

trenchwarfare · 28th January 2015, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

I know what you are referring to and while similar in design I am leaning heavily towards this club having an Oceanic origin with European iron and leather. The wood and carving style point us in that direction.

In helps to spell things right. I meant ANZAC: Australia and New Zealand Army Corps.

That would give it an Oceanic connection. A trip to the trenches in WWI, would add the iron.

Tim Simmons · 28th January 2015, 05:01 PM

There is some semblance to Fijian work. The cowrie has uses in Fijian culture. It looks like many ww1 trench clubs. There was a 57 strong Fijian force serving at the Somme? The cowrie would have value else where in South Pacific regions? Perhaps just a club made with a few pieces of European scrap material additions? Samoans serving with ANZAC?

trenchwarfare · 28th January 2015, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

There is some semblance to Fijian work. The cowrie has uses in Fijian culture. It looks like many ww1 trench clubs. There was a 57 strong Fijian force serving at the Somme? The cowrie would have value else where in South Pacific regions? Perhaps just a club made with a few pieces of European scrap material additions? Samoans serving with ANZAC?

No, but an Aussie, or Kiwi might have access to such.

RSWORD · 29th January 2015, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

There is some semblance to Fijian work. The cowrie has uses in Fijian culture. It looks like many ww1 trench clubs. There was a 57 strong Fijian force serving at the Somme? The cowrie would have value else where in South Pacific regions? Perhaps just a club made with a few pieces of European scrap material additions? Samoans serving with ANZAC?

Having the advantage of club in hand my gut feeling is that the club is much older than WW1. I think it is an interesting theory about it being a trench club used by Fijian troops in the war but my gut tells me otherwise.

VANDOO · 30th January 2015, 06:54 AM

MY GUT AGREES WITH TIM

I THINK ITS OLDER THAN WW1. THE EARLIER HAND FORGED NAILS GO FURTHER BACK BUT THESE NAILS APPEAR TO BE CUT NAILS A.K.A. SQUARE NAILS. PRODUCTION STARTING IN 1790 THEIR HEYDAY BEING IN THE 1860'S WHEN THEY DECLINED AND WERE LATER REPLACED WITH TODAY'S WIRE NAIL FORMS. ANYTHING MADE OF IRON WAS VERY VALUABLE IN OCEANIC SOCIETIES, CAPTAIN COOK WAS KILLED IN 1779 TRYING TO RECOVER A SHIPS BOAT IN HAWAII. THE HAWAIIANS WANTED THE IRON NAILS AND OTHER FITTINGS. THESE WERE THE DAYS OF FIRST CONTACT THE CLUB WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE MUCH LATER DURING A TIME WHEN NAILS AND IRON WERE MORE PLENTIFUL AND LESS EXPENSIVE TRADE GOODS.
I SUSPECT A SAILOR FROM THE ISLANDS MAY HAVE MADE THIS CLUB HE WOULD HAVE HAD ACCESS TO A SUPPLY OF VALUABLE NAILS AS WELL AS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE EUROPEANS AND SHIPS HANDY MAN TO USE THE NAILS TO MAKE THE CLUB. IT WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME IF HE WORKED FOR NAILS AS PAYMENT.
THE CARVING LOOKS LIKE THAT USED IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC IN FIJI AMONG OTHER PLACES. THE COWRIE SHELLS AND NAILS SHOWED WEALTH AND SERVED AS MONEY. A LOCAL RETURNING TO HIS VILLAGE WITH SUCH A CLUB WOULD IMPRESS AND SHOW HIS SUCCESS AND WEALTH.
ISLANDERS OFTEN SIGNED ON AND SERVED ON ISLAND TRADING SHIPS AND WHALING SHIPS. I WOULD GUESS THE AGE OF THE CLUB TO BE SOMEWHERE FROM THE MID 1800'S TO THE EARLY 1900'S. CERTAINLY A INTERESTING AND UNUSUAL CLUB AND AS YOU SAY WITH LOTS GOING ON. THE TWO BANDS APPEAR TO HAVE IRON RINGS UNDER THEM AND THE NAILS BENT OVER THEM. THE OTHER APPEAR TO FORM KNOBS WITH NAILS BENT OVER EACH OTHER.

LOTS OF GUESSING AND LOGICAL CONJECTURE BASED ON HISTORY AND FACTS BUT IN THE END NOT PROVENANCE , JUST A GOOD STORY.

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28th January 2015, 01:03 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,093	Jimmy, Barry, You guys have a lot of club references and experience with these type of things. Any thoughts?

28th January 2015, 05:01 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	There is some semblance to Fijian work. The cowrie has uses in Fijian culture. It looks like many ww1 trench clubs. There was a 57 strong Fijian force serving at the Somme? The cowrie would have value else where in South Pacific regions? Perhaps just a club made with a few pieces of European scrap material additions? Samoans serving with ANZAC?

30th January 2015, 06:54 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY GUT AGREES WITH TIM I THINK ITS OLDER THAN WW1. THE EARLIER HAND FORGED NAILS GO FURTHER BACK BUT THESE NAILS APPEAR TO BE CUT NAILS A.K.A. SQUARE NAILS. PRODUCTION STARTING IN 1790 THEIR HEYDAY BEING IN THE 1860'S WHEN THEY DECLINED AND WERE LATER REPLACED WITH TODAY'S WIRE NAIL FORMS. ANYTHING MADE OF IRON WAS VERY VALUABLE IN OCEANIC SOCIETIES, CAPTAIN COOK WAS KILLED IN 1779 TRYING TO RECOVER A SHIPS BOAT IN HAWAII. THE HAWAIIANS WANTED THE IRON NAILS AND OTHER FITTINGS. THESE WERE THE DAYS OF FIRST CONTACT THE CLUB WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE MUCH LATER DURING A TIME WHEN NAILS AND IRON WERE MORE PLENTIFUL AND LESS EXPENSIVE TRADE GOODS. I SUSPECT A SAILOR FROM THE ISLANDS MAY HAVE MADE THIS CLUB HE WOULD HAVE HAD ACCESS TO A SUPPLY OF VALUABLE NAILS AS WELL AS THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE EUROPEANS AND SHIPS HANDY MAN TO USE THE NAILS TO MAKE THE CLUB. IT WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME IF HE WORKED FOR NAILS AS PAYMENT. THE CARVING LOOKS LIKE THAT USED IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC IN FIJI AMONG OTHER PLACES. THE COWRIE SHELLS AND NAILS SHOWED WEALTH AND SERVED AS MONEY. A LOCAL RETURNING TO HIS VILLAGE WITH SUCH A CLUB WOULD IMPRESS AND SHOW HIS SUCCESS AND WEALTH. ISLANDERS OFTEN SIGNED ON AND SERVED ON ISLAND TRADING SHIPS AND WHALING SHIPS. I WOULD GUESS THE AGE OF THE CLUB TO BE SOMEWHERE FROM THE MID 1800'S TO THE EARLY 1900'S. CERTAINLY A INTERESTING AND UNUSUAL CLUB AND AS YOU SAY WITH LOTS GOING ON. THE TWO BANDS APPEAR TO HAVE IRON RINGS UNDER THEM AND THE NAILS BENT OVER THEM. THE OTHER APPEAR TO FORM KNOBS WITH NAILS BENT OVER EACH OTHER. LOTS OF GUESSING AND LOGICAL CONJECTURE BASED ON HISTORY AND FACTS BUT IN THE END NOT PROVENANCE , JUST A GOOD STORY.