Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

Andrew · 6th December 2005, 02:21 PM

Hi Jim.

Marc · 6th December 2005, 07:31 PM

Hello, Jim.
Nice to see you.

(BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure...

)

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2005, 02:57 AM

Hi Jens, Andrew, Marc!
Thanks so much guys!!

Marc,
Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed.

Jens,
This blade definitely is a puzzler. It seems an almost serpentine recurved shape that is very much like a shortsword example I have with the same lazy S shape. It recalls also the curvature on those maddening 'Black Sea' yataghans that have caused such a stir over the years (these of course had more dramatic curve, deep belly for slashing and the needle point suggested as armour piercing). The consensus now, thanks to Ariels discovery, shows that these were from Turkish regions and into Armenia. These have distinct Persian characteristics in the blades, and if I may speculate, the same influences prevailed in Mughal regions, so possibly this blade shape may have entered the same way. We know that Mughal suzerainty extended well into the Deccan so such blades may have been found into regions we have considered in the south via these routes.
Basically this blade type seems a sosun pattah form shortsword which of course appeared in subtle variations. Most of these seem relatively recent innovations of 19th century origin.

The blade on my shortsword has the strengthened iron piercing point similar to those seen on many katars, so seems consistant with the northern blades as is the hilt which is the smooth pistol grip type khanjhar hilt.
I often wonder if these mid size weapons were intended specifically for close quarters melee.

All the best,
Jim

Marc · 8th December 2005, 06:45 PM

Jim, you underestimate me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Marc,
Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed.

Well... maybe because Juan Eduardo Cirlot was Catalan and a more than noteworthy scholar in his time, because among the many things he wrote there were a few articles on weaponry (from the historical and artistic point of view), because his daughter, Victòria Cirlot wrote an excellent (unpublished, which is a real shame) PhD thesis about arms and armour in Catalonia between the 11th and 14th centuries...

He was also somewhat noted for having a nice collection of renaissance European swords...

That's, more or less, "how in the world"...

kai · 13th December 2005, 01:23 PM

Whoa, great revival! Just had to take a short leave from the forum and there we go...

Thanks, folks! I'll follow up on your leads and answer the points raised later.

Regards,
Kai

Emanuel · 7th April 2006, 02:37 AM

Hello,

This just finished on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
It bears very strong similarities to the short sword discussed in this thread. It also seems to have a khyber-knife hilt and delicate niello work.

Rick · 7th April 2006, 02:43 AM

I have a sneaking suspicion that this may not be antique .
Interesting nonetheless .

7th April 2006, 02:37 AM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another one? Hello, This just finished on ebay http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 It bears very strong similarities to the short sword discussed in this thread. It also seems to have a khyber-knife hilt and delicate niello work.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

6th December 2005, 02:21 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Jim.

6th December 2005, 07:31 PM	#2
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Hello, Jim. Nice to see you. (BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure... )

7th December 2005, 02:57 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Jens, Andrew, Marc! Thanks so much guys!! Marc, Thats incredible! How in the world did you have that note on Cirlot? It does seem to make sense though, it seems I get more and more obsessed with symbolism trying to make sense of the many unusual markings found on blades so his work seems well placed. Jens, This blade definitely is a puzzler. It seems an almost serpentine recurved shape that is very much like a shortsword example I have with the same lazy S shape. It recalls also the curvature on those maddening 'Black Sea' yataghans that have caused such a stir over the years (these of course had more dramatic curve, deep belly for slashing and the needle point suggested as armour piercing). The consensus now, thanks to Ariels discovery, shows that these were from Turkish regions and into Armenia. These have distinct Persian characteristics in the blades, and if I may speculate, the same influences prevailed in Mughal regions, so possibly this blade shape may have entered the same way. We know that Mughal suzerainty extended well into the Deccan so such blades may have been found into regions we have considered in the south via these routes. Basically this blade type seems a sosun pattah form shortsword which of course appeared in subtle variations. Most of these seem relatively recent innovations of 19th century origin. The blade on my shortsword has the strengthened iron piercing point similar to those seen on many katars, so seems consistant with the northern blades as is the hilt which is the smooth pistol grip type khanjhar hilt. I often wonder if these mid size weapons were intended specifically for close quarters melee. All the best, Jim

13th December 2005, 01:23 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Whoa, great revival! Just had to take a short leave from the forum and there we go... Thanks, folks! I'll follow up on your leads and answer the points raised later. Regards, Kai

7th April 2006, 02:43 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I have a sneaking suspicion that this may not be antique . Interesting nonetheless .