Armour?

Ahriman · 5th December 2005, 05:39 PM

Wow, thanks, very useful pictures...

Again, something I thought I invented...

Is it possible that either the krug got there, or these helmets got to the turks? The buyer with the new vambraces would like them combined, and I'm curious that how correct would this be.

Yes, I simply love indian stuff, btw... Maybe with small alterations here and there...

Aqtai · 5th December 2005, 06:13 PM

I think there are few doubts about the Krug. Not only did the Ottomans make extensive use of krugs themselves, but after the Ottomans conquered the Mamluk Sultanate in 1517, they carted huge amounts of Mamluk armour and weapons back to Istanbul. It was subsequently reused by Ottoman troops. With regards to using Indian-style mail and plate helmets we are on much shakier ground. There is no doubt that Mughul armour was influenced by Ottoman and Persian armour, but the influence seems to have flown in only one direction. I haven't seen any Ottoman helmets with a similar method of construction.

By the way, I've found pics of another Indian helmet of a similar type:
http://www.ashokaarts.com/armour/ar-5.html

Ahriman · 9th December 2005, 08:14 AM

Ehm, I was thinking about such a design less than a week ago... Is there nothing new I could invent?

Would it be correct to put arabic text onto the disc of the krug instead of radial flutes? My costumer would like the word "Allah" onto it, but I can't recall any examples... problem is that that I'm quite against using fantasy style stuff for serious reenacting, so I ask for +50% if the buyer wants something that's out of style, or if it can't be explained by combining existing and contacting styles.

Aqtai · 9th December 2005, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Ehm, I was thinking about such a design less than a week ago... Is there nothing new I could invent?

Would it be correct to put arabic text onto the disc of the krug instead of radial flutes? My costumer would like the word "Allah" onto it, but I can't recall any examples... problem is that that I'm quite against using fantasy style stuff for serious reenacting, so I ask for +50% if the buyer wants something that's out of style, or if it can't be explained by combining existing and contacting styles.

I see no reason why inscriptions cannot be put on the Disc, I have seen many examples, like this 16th century Mamluk or Ottoman krug in The Khalili Collection book:

Why just stop at "Allah". Many real Islamic armours and weapons had a variety of inscriptions, including verses from the Qur'an, the names and titles of the Sultan that the warrior wearing the armour was serving, and in the case of armour made for high ranking amirs, the names and titles of the owner.

Ahriman · 10th December 2005, 04:21 PM

Ok, thanks, nice picture again...

I'll stop at Allah because of the price... I got $50 for the vambraces, and I'll get $225 for the krug which will be blacked as well...

Another reason is that I've started learning arabic only very recently...

I could copy, of course, but I want to understand exactly what I write.
Oh, and I'll get $50 for the indian-like helmet as well... :-/

Aqtai · 10th December 2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ahriman

Ok, thanks, nice picture again...

I'll stop at Allah because of the price... I got $50 for the vambraces, and I'll get $225 for the krug which will be blacked as well...

Another reason is that I've started learning arabic only very recently...

I could copy, of course, but I want to understand exactly what I write.
Oh, and I'll get $50 for the indian-like helmet as well... :-/

Fair comment.

I have to say your prices sound pretty reasonable.

hmm...

Ahriman · 11th December 2005, 02:45 PM

They are not reasonable - they are killing my shop...

I have to buy food, and pay for heat, water and electricity, while I have to constantly stock raw material and buy new equipment. I sell most of my armour far under value, either because I was late with them, or I desperately need that money, or simply because I'm not famous, and mostly, because I'm in Hungary, and sell only to Hungary. Even a good SCA level armour sells at $2-3000, but I could get less than $800 for the very same, while MacPherson, the very best modern armourer can ask for 20K as a start.
And because of this, I have to stick to munitions grade stuff... where function is more important than anything else, and production cost can be kept at a minimum. If someone wanted to pay even 10-15K for a vollharnisch, and would be able to wait for a year or so, I could even make Negroli-level armour, as I have the tools and the skill as well... but for 800$, I won't.

So if anyone is interested: the correct price for that fluted vambrace should be at $100-120, the helmet about 150, and the krug is correct at 225. A correct, munitions grade barbute (italian classic-like helmet) would be about $400. Riveted mail doubles the price, while blackening adds 50%.

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5th December 2005, 05:39 PM	#1
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Wow, thanks, very useful pictures... Again, something I thought I invented... Is it possible that either the krug got there, or these helmets got to the turks? The buyer with the new vambraces would like them combined, and I'm curious that how correct would this be. Yes, I simply love indian stuff, btw... Maybe with small alterations here and there...

5th December 2005, 06:13 PM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I think there are few doubts about the Krug. Not only did the Ottomans make extensive use of krugs themselves, but after the Ottomans conquered the Mamluk Sultanate in 1517, they carted huge amounts of Mamluk armour and weapons back to Istanbul. It was subsequently reused by Ottoman troops. With regards to using Indian-style mail and plate helmets we are on much shakier ground. There is no doubt that Mughul armour was influenced by Ottoman and Persian armour, but the influence seems to have flown in only one direction. I haven't seen any Ottoman helmets with a similar method of construction. By the way, I've found pics of another Indian helmet of a similar type: http://www.ashokaarts.com/armour/ar-5.html

9th December 2005, 08:14 AM	#3
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Ehm, I was thinking about such a design less than a week ago... Is there nothing new I could invent? Would it be correct to put arabic text onto the disc of the krug instead of radial flutes? My costumer would like the word "Allah" onto it, but I can't recall any examples... problem is that that I'm quite against using fantasy style stuff for serious reenacting, so I ask for +50% if the buyer wants something that's out of style, or if it can't be explained by combining existing and contacting styles.

10th December 2005, 04:21 PM	#5
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	Ok, thanks, nice picture again... I'll stop at Allah because of the price... I got $50 for the vambraces, and I'll get $225 for the krug which will be blacked as well... Another reason is that I've started learning arabic only very recently... I could copy, of course, but I want to understand exactly what I write. Oh, and I'll get $50 for the indian-like helmet as well... :-/

11th December 2005, 02:45 PM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	They are not reasonable - they are killing my shop... I have to buy food, and pay for heat, water and electricity, while I have to constantly stock raw material and buy new equipment. I sell most of my armour far under value, either because I was late with them, or I desperately need that money, or simply because I'm not famous, and mostly, because I'm in Hungary, and sell only to Hungary. Even a good SCA level armour sells at $2-3000, but I could get less than $800 for the very same, while MacPherson, the very best modern armourer can ask for 20K as a start. And because of this, I have to stick to munitions grade stuff... where function is more important than anything else, and production cost can be kept at a minimum. If someone wanted to pay even 10-15K for a vollharnisch, and would be able to wait for a year or so, I could even make Negroli-level armour, as I have the tools and the skill as well... but for 800$, I won't. So if anyone is interested: the correct price for that fluted vambrace should be at $100-120, the helmet about 150, and the krug is correct at 225. A correct, munitions grade barbute (italian classic-like helmet) would be about $400. Riveted mail doubles the price, while blackening adds 50%.