Shamshir for comment

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

South Caucasian Qaddara, they migrated to Iran to be used in the Ashura ceremony.

I have seen this particular type being described as a Persian infantry sword, seems to nice for Ashura.

[Kubur]

I agree with Escrtch...
Too nice and too heavy also
or you do ashura one time only...
I'm fine with Persian infantry sword like the French briquet
May be the blades were produced in South Caucasus, I have no idea about that...

[Kubur]

Plus the coins on the rivets of the grip are Qajar
The scabbard is Qajar...what else...
We need an expert for the stamps on the blade...

[Congoblades]

Have also this one, similar fullers as the sword. Will probably be of the same region. The decoration on the tip of the sheath is a bit strange. Looks more like german or austrian??

[Kubur]

The lion with the sword or the gazelle on your scabbard are pure Persian motives.
For me, your sword is Persian from A to Z.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly.

Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work.

Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly.

Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work.

Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop.

Great information Oliver. here is a link to a PDf copy which I think is to the book you referenced, unfortunately it is not in English.

EG Astvatsaturyan. "Weapons of peoples of the Caucasus"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...80642063,d.aWw

[Kubur]

Thank you very much Oliver
Now another point, could you explain the fact that some qaddara with the blades that you described are covered with golden inscriptions, farsi as well.
Do you think that they did the inscriptions and the decoration on the blades later??? Some are published in the book of Khorasani, others are visible on line.