The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[David]

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about.

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by spiral

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

I think the pinky ring is the give away when deciding who is who...it is the constant.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

I'm sorry Spiral, but the when i look at post #157 the guy on the right (with the full gray beard) in the group photo is most definitely NOT the man in the singular photo situated above the group photo. Their facial features are completely different. The man on the left however matches the facial features of the singular photo perfectly, albeit he is a little older in the group picture.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I had the same reaction as David when looking at the pictures of Tippu Tip. Lots of Google images confirm that this is the gentleman on the RIGHT side of the group photo in post #166.

The photo shown in post #160 does come up on Google as well. Considering the very different facial features, however, I suggest that the "younger" photo (#160) is actually a totally different person. The bulbous eyes with the very deep bags under the eyes, and the gaunt face and thin nose contrast with Tippu's fuller face and high cheekbones.

Attached are other pics of Tippu Tip

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

The younger photo (#160) is referred in a Wikipedia article from an post on the older Vikingsword forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002674.html, which appears to have the photo from http://bakadanka.blogspot.ca/2013/02...orbeelden.html .

The photo in question appears to have been taken by a Bojan Breceli in the 1860s. THis would put it about 30 years earlier than the group photo, taken in 1890.

Emanuel

[spiral]

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

Salaams Jim... True indeed and the same goes over here... I can show loads of prop studio pictures with swords 'n daggers added to clients ... It was part of the business... In fact I was just diving on some detail about Zanzibar and noted that the Goan immigrants chose photography as one of their skills ...along with jewellery making and musical instrument makers!

On the subject of Tippu Tip or Tippu Tib and avoiding the Disneyesque terms others seem to be slapping on him...the pictures show him singly at a younger age with a curved Omani Kattara and in the other picture much later on the right of a line of 4 sitting next to Wali Mohd...a local governor... from which he may well have borrowed the straight dancing sword...or switched it.

I show Wali Mohd singly at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at #253 with the sword that Tippu Tib is holding in the 4 man picture..

The chap on the left of the 4 man line..I have in another picture below and he could be the brother or uncle of the ruler...for what its worth. The reference is from the Getty Images website and the character is third person from the right and perhaps, as I say, a relative of the Ruler.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...

I almost forgot to include the following dancing sword style which is essentially straight and certainly as flexible ...and you will be delighted to hear even more deadly looking for the imagined combat role for which it was never used. This is simply a dancing sword variant with a more vicious blade. It is said that the blade was bathed in blood etc etc ... which is more connected to the hype than reality ... but it is worth looking at since it does belong to the same family of Omani dancing swords....another heraldic pageantry sword. The terminology in the Richardson and Dorr Herritage document from which I borrowed the picture below is "Flambouyant".. I owned a few and picture one at #68.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source.

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral



.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral



.

Note the two other indicators of national recognition of the dynastic rule invented at the time of Said bin Sultan..ruled 1804 til 1856 who moved the capital on Oman to Zanzibar ~and worn here by Tippu Tib..

The royal turban and the royal khanjar. Zanzibar thence became an important hub and the fact based on the slave trade controlled from there is too inviting to ignore as to the linkage from Omani Kattara to the Omani Dancing sword and the transfer of hilts to the Iconic dancing style...for pageants and dancing...only.