The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. .

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard?

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard?

Spiral

Oh that picture! I was the first to indicate that this sword was in fact curved... A curved Kattara ~at Kattara for comments I believe at #21 and a correction at #25 on his correct name .http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Yes this is curved... It's The Slavers badge of Office and I believe a punishment sword ... Sadly many slaves, mainly males, were axed on route from central Africa as the word was that they werent in demand... women and children were more highly prized... In fact this changed when the spices fields came into full flow on Zanzibar but ... that sword I reckon was a murderous tool...Single edged heavy backblade ~often a European blade.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~On the subject of #157 there is a picture of Tipu Tip at the end of a group... next to him is a gentleman called Wali Mohd bin Salim Minindani..with a Shamshiir ~ Wali means governer.. I think the dancing sword with Tipu Tip belongs to the Wali. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments at #253 where the same cross wired hilt is seen with Wali Mohd. Photographs of people with swords were often concocted for the picture sometimes with artists props.. It is interesting un-picking the details..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Oh that picture! I was the first to indicate that this sword was in fact curved... A curved Kattara ~at Kattara for comments I believe at #21 and a correction at #25 on his correct name .http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Yes this is curved... It's The Slavers badge of Office and I believe a punishment sword ... Sadly many slaves, mainly males, were axed on route from central Africa as the word was that they werent in demand... women and children were more highly prized... In fact this changed when the spices fields came into full flow on Zanzibar but ... that sword I reckon was a murderous tool...Single edged heavy backblade ~often a European blade.

You were also the only person in this thread to repeatedly refer to it as straight!

I agree with your definition of it. Ive been trying to point it out to you through out this thread after all..


I would give the same definition for this one he also carry's in this picture.... Only it will be a straight probably European blade. But a weapon clearly.

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

Spiral

[David]

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about.

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by spiral

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

I think the pinky ring is the give away when deciding who is who...it is the constant.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

I'm sorry Spiral, but the when i look at post #157 the guy on the right (with the full gray beard) in the group photo is most definitely NOT the man in the singular photo situated above the group photo. Their facial features are completely different. The man on the left however matches the facial features of the singular photo perfectly, albeit he is a little older in the group picture.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I had the same reaction as David when looking at the pictures of Tippu Tip. Lots of Google images confirm that this is the gentleman on the RIGHT side of the group photo in post #166.

The photo shown in post #160 does come up on Google as well. Considering the very different facial features, however, I suggest that the "younger" photo (#160) is actually a totally different person. The bulbous eyes with the very deep bags under the eyes, and the gaunt face and thin nose contrast with Tippu's fuller face and high cheekbones.

Attached are other pics of Tippu Tip

Emanuel

[spiral]

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by spiral

You were also the only person in this thread to repeatedly refer to it as straight!

I agree with your definition of it. Ive been trying to point it out to you through out this thread after all..


I would give the same definition for this one he also carry's in this picture.... Only it will be a straight probably European blade. But a weapon clearly.

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

Spiral

Salaams Spiral; will you please stop adding insulting notations to your posts such as;

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

In reference to the straight blade held by your latest photograph subject on the right is Tippu Tip the slaver... he holds a straight dancing sword in this picture and in others a curved Kattara..

The Straight sword is not for fighting. Not only is the man as blind as a bat at this stage in his life but the blade is flexible for pageants and marchpast only...meetings with other dignitories ...Eid celebrations ..and weddings...but not fighting.

There is a strong chance that this belongs to Wali Mohd sitting next to him. These blades are not at all European but made in Omani workshops or by special commission by Zutoot wandering gypsies in Oman. The essential ingredient is the flexible, two edged, sharp blade with spatulate tip on a long Omani Hilt. They are Omani blades.

The use of European blades was confined to the Slavers curved Kattara not the dancing sword. (This in fact has another interpretation in a single 17th century quote from a Dutch visitor however, he was referring to alternative blades on the Old Omani Battle Sword as being occasionally European but that is still under review and anyway set outside the parameters of dancing sword blades.)

In all cases all of these swords were used as Badge of Office for important dignitories. All.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral; will you please stop adding insulting notations to your posts such as;

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

.

Sorry if you feel insulted, that wasn't my intention.

It to me seems that state of play.

Anyway, Ill bow out for the time being until you or others provide fresh material . to breathe some fresh air into this thread.

Its rather like chewing old dry bread.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Spiral, There it is again...

I have simply requested you dip your pen in civil ink... The subject is more complex than your incessant need to stamp your feet... This is not a contest..it is a team effort. Some of what you say is relevant but when you run out of content the tendency is to revert to disrespectful comment... off topic and not relevant to the discussion. If you wish to leave the thread that is entirely up to you... or you could consider your input and continue...The onus is on everyone to add fresh material and not to complain about the messenger... It is the thread we are trying to promote ... not ambush the author.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In reference to the straight blade held by your latest photograph subject on the right is Tippu Tip the slaver... he holds a straight dancing sword in this picture and in others a curved Kattara..

The Straight sword is not for fighting. Not only is the man as blind as a bat at this stage in his life but the blade is flexible for pageants and marchpast only...meetings with other dignitories ...Eid celebrations ..and weddings...but not fighting.

There is a strong chance that this belongs to Wali Mohd sitting next to him. These blades are not at all European but made in Omani workshops or by special commission by Zutoot wandering gypsies in Oman. The essential ingredient is the flexible, two edged, sharp blade with spatulate tip on a long Omani Hilt. They are Omani blades.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This notion about blade types within scabbards and who owned whose sword is not fact. No one knows what blades are hidden within these scabbards nor who owned them. At face value the owner of the sword is each holding their own and I doubt these are props in the context of this photo spoken about. Equally valid suggestions are noted with reference to the photos and the context of the harsh reality in the day but are dismissed without fact.

For the most part the thread is just repeated and repeated notions that no other straight sword in the form existed other than a sword that bends and was used for dance...but without fact...no other sword presented or notion suggested with validity is accepted, just the same old non acceptance...the thread will never move forward with this one eyed view.

With all that has been presented thus far, no one knows when the long handled sword became a pure dance only sword that it is known for today.

I have held and owned both types, more than enough of each. One of the dance swords I consider a master piece from antiquity, some of the fighting swords being important examples. No previous amount of rude, uncivil, inflaming or slanderous comments while change the fighting swords in to Souk swords.
The master piece dance sword has a blade type not even mentioned within these pages. I will not offer it for discussion until this silly notion that no fighting sword of the long handled type ever existed. Knowing both types, I can accept dance only sword of today was drawn from fighting types and at one time they existed side by side until the earlier type became unaccepted, molded in to the requirements of a more modern time.

To date, all that has been presented, apart from one of the fighting types I shared have appeare to be no more than modern examples, modern masterpieces, poor quality and bad taste souk swords that do not resemble anything like the dance swords or fighting sword from antiquity, along with photos and pictures drawn from the internet with a false claim of what may lay within the original sheaths and period context from which the artist made his impression.
For the most it appears no first hand personal examples are presented in context highlighting required aspects have been shown...perhaps just a couple of simple profile shots of rebound hilts???... Nothing in detail or personal context of the type meant to be a dance sword.

Ibrahiim, please bring your best complete dance sword from antiquity to the table for dissection. One we can discuss at length and draw from. Lets discuss one for a little while and look at subject matter rather than what MIGHT have been.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral, There it is again...

I have simply requested you dip your pen in civil ink... The subject is more complex than your incessant need to stamp your feet... This is not a contest..it is a team effort. Some of what you say is relevant but when you run out of content the tendency is to revert to disrespectful comment... off topic and not relevant to the discussion. If you wish to leave the thread that is entirely up to you... or you could consider your input and continue...The onus is on everyone to add fresh material and not to complain about the messenger... It is the thread we are trying to promote ... not ambush the author.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Let's please leave moderation duties to the moderators.