Turkish sword with European influence?

RhysMichael · 23rd November 2005, 02:03 PM

The blade and handle look like a saif or nimcha to me but the ring guard certainly does not fit that sword. A great find and I cannot wait to see what those who know more have to say.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd November 2005, 02:14 PM

Eftihis, I have a funny feeling that the ‘basket’ could have been added later – has it?

ham · 23rd November 2005, 03:31 PM

Jens,

It is a very interesting sword, probably 17th century North African work-- don't see anything which suggests Ottoman forms. It is fitted with a trade blade, earlier than average one too, I imagine it is quite long for the type. Most likely it was assembled using or duplicating a rapier-type guard which the owner found more effective in protecting his hand than a standard Nimcha guard. This guard may have been reused at some point as the knucklebow finial has been bent over a bit in order to correspond in length to the pommel.
Anthony North, formerly of the Victoria & Albert Museum, London, published an excellent article on the origin of the Nimcha in Connoisseur Magazine back in the 70s. As I recall he identifies its progenitor as a little-known Italian saber of the early 16th century. It is an excellent article which proves his point admirably.

Sincerely,

Ham

ariel · 23rd November 2005, 06:58 PM

I agree with Ham: nothing to suggest later soldering of the European guard on the pre-existing Nimcha guars. This sword was likely born this way. Tremendously interesting example of a "fusion sword".
Let's not forget, however, that the movement went the other way as well: the Europeans liked Nimchas so much that they produced swords with a similar guard for a long time and when David was charged with the responsibility of designing a sword for the French Revolutionary guards, he used Nimcha as an example.
Bidirectional crosspollination (rather pompous but true definition).

Tim Simmons · 23rd November 2005, 07:46 PM

It is odd to see a slashing cavalry sword with a thrusting rapier type hilt but it looks like it was always made that way. It may well not be three centuries old. I can not think of many 17/18 century European cavalry swords with a rapier basket. Tim

Rick · 23rd November 2005, 07:49 PM

Why then could this not be an early Italian sabre rather than an Italianate style Nimcha ?
I'm sure there's an obvious answer; but I'm missing it .

Tim Simmons · 23rd November 2005, 07:59 PM

I am not an expert on European swords but I am sure this is not Italian craftmanship from the 1600s especially the sword of a wealthy man. To me it is North African 1800s why it has the rapier basket I do not know, If you look closely you can see one of the quillions has been braised back on and rather crudely. Tim

ariel · 24th November 2005, 01:36 AM

I think it has an obviously North African blade. I have similar blades on Beduin and Nimcha swords.

23rd November 2005, 03:31 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Jens, It is a very interesting sword, probably 17th century North African work-- don't see anything which suggests Ottoman forms. It is fitted with a trade blade, earlier than average one too, I imagine it is quite long for the type. Most likely it was assembled using or duplicating a rapier-type guard which the owner found more effective in protecting his hand than a standard Nimcha guard. This guard may have been reused at some point as the knucklebow finial has been bent over a bit in order to correspond in length to the pommel. Anthony North, formerly of the Victoria & Albert Museum, London, published an excellent article on the origin of the Nimcha in Connoisseur Magazine back in the 70s. As I recall he identifies its progenitor as a little-known Italian saber of the early 16th century. It is an excellent article which proves his point admirably. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 23rd November 2005 at 03:41 PM.

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23rd November 2005, 02:03 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	The blade and handle look like a saif or nimcha to me but the ring guard certainly does not fit that sword. A great find and I cannot wait to see what those who know more have to say.

23rd November 2005, 02:14 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Eftihis, I have a funny feeling that the ‘basket’ could have been added later – has it?

23rd November 2005, 06:58 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I agree with Ham: nothing to suggest later soldering of the European guard on the pre-existing Nimcha guars. This sword was likely born this way. Tremendously interesting example of a "fusion sword". Let's not forget, however, that the movement went the other way as well: the Europeans liked Nimchas so much that they produced swords with a similar guard for a long time and when David was charged with the responsibility of designing a sword for the French Revolutionary guards, he used Nimcha as an example. Bidirectional crosspollination (rather pompous but true definition).

23rd November 2005, 07:46 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	It is odd to see a slashing cavalry sword with a thrusting rapier type hilt but it looks like it was always made that way. It may well not be three centuries old. I can not think of many 17/18 century European cavalry swords with a rapier basket. Tim

23rd November 2005, 07:49 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Why then could this not be an early Italian sabre rather than an Italianate style Nimcha ? I'm sure there's an obvious answer; but I'm missing it .

23rd November 2005, 07:59 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I am not an expert on European swords but I am sure this is not Italian craftmanship from the 1600s especially the sword of a wealthy man. To me it is North African 1800s why it has the rapier basket I do not know, If you look closely you can see one of the quillions has been braised back on and rather crudely. Tim

24th November 2005, 01:36 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think it has an obviously North African blade. I have similar blades on Beduin and Nimcha swords.